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Hamas tells negotiators it doesn’t have 40 Israeli hostages needed for first round of ceasefire | CNN (www.cnn.com)

submitted 5 months ago by Rapidcreek@lemmy.world to c/world@lemmy.world

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[-] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 83 points 5 months ago

Article is way better than the headline...

The framework that has been laid out by negotiators says that during a first six-week pause in the fighting, Hamas should release 40 of the remaining hostages, including all the women as well as sick and elderly men. In exchange, hundreds of Palestinian prisoners would be released from Israeli prisons.

Hamas has told international mediators – which include Qatar and Egypt - it does not have 40 living hostages who match those criteria for release, both sources said.

CNN’s record of the conditions of the hostages also suggests there are fewer than 40 living hostages who meet the proposed criteria.

Hamas just hasn't been taking civilian noncombatants as hostages like Israel has been doing.

Most hostages are combatants, and that doesn't meet the details for this requirement

The majority of the almost 100 hostages who remain alive are believed to be male IDF soldiers or men of military reserve age.

[-] Rapidcreek@lemmy.world 27 points 5 months ago

Hamas just hasn't been taking civilian noncombatants as hostages like Israel has been doing.

Totally untrue

[-] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 23 points 5 months ago

Where are Hamas getting them?

Like, do you think this is an actual war where both sides attack each other's territories?

Seriously, at what point in the last six months would Hamas have captured non combatants?

[-] Stovetop@lemmy.world 21 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I am not here to give Israel a W, but Hamas still has a number of civilian captives from the original October 7 attack. Just not as many surviving as was assumed.

According to Israel's own figures, there are 90 or so living hostages and 30 or so bodies still held by Hamas IIRC. Apparently most of the 90 survivors are non-civilians, based on what Hamas is saying, but some of them still are.

[-] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 22 points 5 months ago

According to Israel’s own figures,

But not according to anyone else's...

Israel has been flattening the entire area, they can't keep track of how many they kill, regardless of what country they're from.

But the article OP linked even says there aren't 40 noncombatants left....

CNN’s record of the conditions of the hostages also suggests there are fewer than 40 living hostages who meet the proposed criteria.

I'm not sure what you're not understanding about this.

Or why you're listening to Israel still

[-] Stovetop@lemmy.world 7 points 5 months ago

But the article OP linked even says there aren't 40 noncombatants left....

Right, I acknowledged that. It's just that no one knows who specifically is counted in the alive vs dead hostage statistics. It wouldn't surprise me if Israel purposefully set a number of civilians that they knew had likely already died, knowing that Hamas would not be able to comply with the request, to justify continuing the conflict.

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 15 points 5 months ago

According to Israel’s own figures

Therein lies the problem.

[-] Stovetop@lemmy.world 9 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I would say take it with a grain of salt, but there's enough international scrutiny that I would say the list of missing is probably reliable enough. People in Israel are still protesting the Israeli government about that very frequently. Not everyone missing from October 7th has been returned, alive or dead. Many probably buried beneath rubble from IDF attacks, to be honest, since several were already confirmed killed by "friendly" fire.

Edit: to add, it is worth noting that Hamas is not the only group that participated in Oct 7 and took hostages. There are likely other hostages that they cannot account for because they were taken by other groups.

[-] Rapidcreek@lemmy.world 10 points 5 months ago

The hostages were taken on October 7th of last year. Try to keepup.

[-] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 20 points 5 months ago

Try to keepup.

I have...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_prisoner_exchange

Again, your own article says CNN knows there aren't 40 hostages left that aren't noncombatants.

Israel keeps taking civilians hostage, so they have enough.

Since 10/7 the only Israelis Hamas interacts with are combatants. They literally don't have enough hostages left for this deal, which is likely how the deal arrived at that number.

It's something that literally is impossible to comply with, and Israel gets to blame Hamas.

This ain't complicated bub. Your own source agrees with me.

You should read it

[-] SkyezOpen@lemmy.world 18 points 5 months ago

And they've been repeatedly bombed for the past several months, try to keep up.

[-] aleph@lemm.ee 12 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Oh, it's true alright:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67600015

[-] TheFonz@lemmy.world 6 points 5 months ago

You only addressed half the statement. They are not saying that Israel doesn't take civilian hostages. They are questioning the claim that Hamas doesn't take civilian hostages. Follow the thread please.

[-] aleph@lemm.ee 4 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Is there any evidence that Hamas has taken new hostages since October 7th? Because AFAIK there isn't.

[-] TheFonz@lemmy.world 7 points 5 months ago

A temporal attribute has not been included in this statement:

Hamas just hasn’t been taking civilian noncombatants as hostages like Israel has been doing.

But you have added a temporal qualifier:

taken new hostages since October 7th

I think maybe that's where the disconnect is? I don't know. I don't know who or what you're arguing against.

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[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 44 points 5 months ago

You mean Israel went into negotiations making unreasonable demands? Like almost every other time?

[-] TheFonz@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago

What are the demands of each side? Can we lay them out and compare? Or do we know already that Hamas demands are reasonable? Do we always have to take sides? I personally want what's best for the Palestinian people so I want a ceasefire and return to negotiations. But this partisan flailing isn't helping the cause. Unless of course we're ok sacrificing more Palestinians? I don't get it.

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 3 points 5 months ago

Do sides have to be taken in a negotiation?

I would say yes. That's the whole point of a negotiation.

[-] TheFonz@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Should we grant:

A. Both sides be reasonable?
B. Only Israel should be reasonable?
C. Only Hamas should be reasonable?
D. None of the above.

I just don't understand why you're calling out only one party?

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago

Because one party is demanding something the other party says it doesn't have.

[-] Zomg@lemmy.world 3 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Problem I think is why they don't have them now if they had them at some point.

Unless they never had them to begin with; having people and now no longer having them points to killing them which, surprise, hurts negotiation.

Who knows though, Israel might of taken them for innocent Palestinians and did it to themselves :(

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago

Unless it wasn't Hamas who killed them.

The IDF didn't put a magical force field around the hostages as they bombed the shit out of Gaza.

The IDF has already admitted to "mistakenly" killing hostages that had been released- https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/16/israeli-hostages-mistakenly-killed-in-gaza-were-had-a-white-flag-official

And those were the ones they were caught killing or even were aware themselves that were killed. How many more were killed?

[-] Zomg@lemmy.world 3 points 5 months ago

Yeah, I'm not ruling out Israel unknowingly killing their own (or even knowingly I guess) but I think regardless if an explanation (that's true) by either was possible, it'd be better.

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[-] Sam_Bass@lemmy.world 21 points 5 months ago

Theyre dead, Jim

[-] Rapidcreek@lemmy.world 8 points 5 months ago

There are supposed to be 136 hostages in Gaza.

[-] Altofaltception@lemmy.world 19 points 5 months ago

The criteria are for women and the elderly to be released. The majority of the remaining hostages are men of military age (as Israel has mandatory conscription, they are military personnel by definition).

[-] Rapidcreek@lemmy.world 6 points 5 months ago

So what happened to the old women and children? Sold into slavery? Dead?

[-] AdamEatsAss@lemmy.world 13 points 5 months ago

Probably dead or unknown. Terror organizations aren't usually known for their record keeping.

[-] bamboo@lemm.ee 10 points 5 months ago

And even when they try their best, it’s hard when a larger terrorist organization is actively trying to genocide them and bomb everything they know to rubble.

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[-] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 15 points 5 months ago

...

According to who?

The IDF?

Why would anyone be listening to them at this point? They lie constantly about damn near everything...

[-] LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 6 points 5 months ago

I mean this is publicly verifiable information in terms of who went missing on Oct. 7th. It would be foolish to lie about it.

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 9 points 5 months ago

It would be foolish to lie about it.

And we all know Israel never makes foolish lies.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/09/middleeast/gaza-food-aid-convoy-deaths-eyewitness-intl-investigation-cmd/index.html

https://abcnews.go.com/International/world-central-kitchen-attack-on-aid-workers-gaza/story?id=108814150

https://time.com/6176045/israel-response-shireen-abu-akleh-killing/

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[-] OccamsTeapot@lemmy.world 3 points 5 months ago

The Israeli prime minister’s office said Wednesday that of the 129 hostages from the October 7 attack currently held, 33 are dead.

So are you saying this article you posted contains misinformation? Or did you not read it?

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[-] Rapidcreek@lemmy.world 7 points 5 months ago

What is amazing is that there are some that are ever ready to quote numbers given by Hamas, when they can't even track 40 hostages.

[-] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 29 points 5 months ago

CNN’s record of the conditions of the hostages also suggests there are fewer than 40 living hostages who meet the proposed criteria.

So...

Even the source of the article you posted is wrong?

Did you even read the article or just the headline?

[-] Rapidcreek@lemmy.world 3 points 5 months ago

The look of a poker player that ran out of chips....

They've found bodies of hostages all the time. One just yesterday. I suppose you could do some math to estimate probability of who is living. Only Hamas would know,except they claim not to.

[-] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 14 points 5 months ago

They're saying less than 40...

Which is what CNN is saying...

The only one saying more is Israel, and how the hell would they know when they've spent 6 months flattening everything?

Do you think they know when they blow up and kill Israelis?

Like, you think they're going in and sorting thru the rubble to check?

There's no logical reason Israel would have any idea.

Like, you've been saying we need to listen to Israel's numbers. You're still saying we have to...

And then this:

Only Hamas would know,except they claim not to.

There's no logical consistency, you're claiming two opposite things at the same time

[-] werefreeatlast@lemmy.world 3 points 5 months ago

Okay how about 25? 24 and 3 fingers?...wrong cartel! Sinaloa guys, we'll get back to you later... At! I meant at you later. Sorry I'm new at this negotiation shit. Let's start over.

Okay, my name is...is....hmmm.... Pedro. What's your name? And you said Carlos does have the two testicles? Okay okay. Look let's not do someth....he has only one testicle not? Not his testicle. Oh man, poor kid, listen guy, I was just pooping and I picked up the phone without checking, I think you got the wrong number. Yeah I'm real sorry. I hope you find Carlo's friends, I really do.

[-] zephyreks@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago

Racism, everybody.

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this post was submitted on 10 Apr 2024

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