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submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by AEMarling@slrpnk.net to c/solarpunk@slrpnk.net

Listening to a recent episode of the Solarpunk Presents podcast reminded me the importance of consistently calling out cryptocurrency as a wasteful scam. The podcast hosts fail to do that, and because bad actors will continue to try to push crypto, we must condemn it with equal persistence.

Solarpunks must be skeptical of anyone saying it’s important to buy something, like a Tesla, or buy in, with cryptocurrency. Capitalists want nothing more than to co-opt radical movements, neutralizing them, to sell products.

People shilling crypto will tell you it decentralizes power. So that’s a lie, but solarpunks who believe it may be fooled into investing in this Ponzi scheme that burns more energy than some countries. Crypto will centralize power in billionaires, increasing their wealth and decreasing their accountability. That’s why Space Karen Elon Musk pushes crypto. The freer the market, the faster it devolves to monopoly. Rather than decentralizing anything, crypto would steer us toward a Bladerunner dystopia with its all-powerful Tyrell corporation.

Promoting crypto on a solarpunk podcast would be unforgivable. That’s not quite what happens on S5E1 “Let’s Talk Tech.” The hosts seem to understand crypto has no part in a solarpunk future or its prefigurative present. But they don’t come out and say that, adopting a tone of impartiality. At best, I would call this disingenuous. And it reeks of the both-sides-ism that corporate media used to paralyze climate action discourse for decades.

Crypto is not “appropriate tech,” and discussing it without any clarity is inappropriate.

Update for episode 5.3: In a case of hyper hypocrisy, they caution against accepting superficial solutions---things that appear utopian but really reinforce inequality and accelerate the climate crisis---while doing exactly that by talking up cryptocurrency.

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[-] stabby_cicada@slrpnk.net 60 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Cryptocurrency is the online equivalent of the neo-Nazi bar.

You know how the story goes, with the bartender who tells the customer "you have to throw out neo-Nazis as soon as you see the uniforms or the tattoos, no matter how polite and well-behaved they are. Because if you let Nazis stay and get comfortable they'll invite their friends, and word gets around that Nazis can drink comfortably at your bar, and customers who don't want to drink with Nazis leave, and suddenly you have a Nazi bar". You all remember that story?

Well, cryptocurrency in online spaces - especially futurist spaces and technological spaces - it's a lot like that. Cryptocurrency supporters are constantly looking for opportunities to promote cryptocurrency. And they obviously see a movement like solarpunk, which talks a lot about decentralization, and mistrusts the global financial system, and so on, as fertile ground for shilling cryptocurrency.

And if you let cryptocurrency supporters hang out and talk about how awesome cryptocurrency is, they will inevitably start shilling their particular flavor of cryptocurrency. And that's inevitably a capitalist scam and will inevitably harm anyone stupid enough to fall for it.

And the problem is not just that cryptocurrency is a capitalist scam. It's that, if you don't shut down cryptocurrency talk aggressively, you get more cryptocurrency supporters. Because the crypto bros see that cryptocurrency discussion is allowed, and they join in, and they invite their friends, and they start shilling their scams. And then you get crypto spammers and scam bots and the personal messages inviting you to elite investment opportunities and all the other scummy garbage that infests cryptocurrency websites. You either block cryptocurrency talk or you get a website full of crypto garbage.

In other words, cryptocurrency supporters need to be shut down as quickly and ruthlessly as any other bots and spammers. Because if you don't you inevitably get a website full of bots and spammers.

[-] chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com 26 points 1 year ago

Because the crypto bros see that cryptocurrency discussion is allowed, and they join in, and they invite their friends, and they start shilling their scams. And then you get crypto spammers and scam bots and the personal messages inviting you to elite investment opportunities and all the other scummy garbage that infests cryptocurrency websites

At this point any cryptocurrency discussion space by necessity has strict policies against promotion, people who like to talk about cryptocurrency have realized it's generally rude and unwelcome to shill their bags outside of designated areas, and crypto scam bots don't limit themselves to only those spaces. Not every group of people you don't like is the equivalent of Nazis.

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[-] TheDannysaur@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago

Yeah this doesn't seem like a great take. I think there's severe selection bias.

I like a narrow band of crypto projects. I think the vast majority of things you hear about are scams. There's a ton of bad actors in the space. My advice to people is just to be careful, but I don't promote crypto because I don't promote things that you should have a good understanding of before investing in them. I'm not in the business of risking other people's money. I'll talk about the tech, but usually uninterested in a specific token.

I don't think your brand of zero tolerance will work on such a broad scale. I do think you should aggressively shut down any specifics about [token or project], but it's not inevitable that people go towards shilling.

I was one of the top users of a crypto subreddit, and it got over run in the way you are talking about. Shills and people talking about price, etc. I wanted to have real conversations about the tech and implications. I left because it wasn't what I wanted anymore.

There are people who can talk about those topics with the nuance required, but I agree many cannot.

Aggressive moderation? Good idea.

Zero tolerance policy? Bad idea.

Given the above you'll retreat to "so a little Nazi-ism is OK?" - and if you can't figure out the difference between the two and your view is that polarized, I don't think we'll really find any common ground here.

[-] ComradeKhoumrag@infosec.pub 10 points 1 year ago

This is an emotionally charged post, yet everyone you disagree with is secretly trying to influence everyone else? How the fuck are you going to compare people who like a type of software to literal Nazis? Anyone who relies on emotional arguments like that is clearly not a rationalist.

How do you achieve communism without authoritarianism? This sub says they like decentralization, but if you decentralize based on computers, how do you stop adversaries from performing a Sybil attack? How do we establish command and control for a decentralized network, without letting authoritarians seize that command and control? How do you establish a decentralized identity system, without also establishing a decentralized system for data management and governance?

Now, should a Blockchain be that? Maybe not, I'm not trying sell whatever to you. I get being annoyed by all the advertisers, but to go an extra step to say that the principles of cypherpunk is something to compare to Nazis, is just proof you care more about emotional arguments and setting narrative.

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[-] bloup@lemmy.sdf.org 58 points 1 year ago

I just wish people who complained about it would spend at least 5 seconds trying to think about an alternative way to achieve p2p electronic cash transactions that lacks the problems they see in cryptocurrency. But nobody ever does. At the very least, don’t try to convince me that the problems that cryptocurrency purports to try and solve aren’t real problems.

[-] LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 46 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

So I’m not sure I see how crypto is preferable to the non-crypto banking system? I don’t support either of them but if you can show that it’s better, then maybe it has some uses temporarily until we find a better solution.

It’s going to have to be a lot better in other ways to get over the issues around scams, volatility, and energy use though.

[-] Restaldt@lemm.ee 12 points 1 year ago

It only works better on a global scale and only for certain cases. And if you ignore problems present in the current banking system.

My examples would be:

people traveling (or refugees fleeing) across multiple countries would benefit from some kind of cryptocurrency in that their assets would be easier to access globally. No having to convert their money as they cross borders or dealing with banks and credit.

People living in places with unstable government and financial institutions would maybe benefit from having access to a decentralized global system to store some of their money in a system their government doesn't have a hand in or control over

Cryptocurrency is still a new technology and idea. Centralized banking has existed for thousands of years.

Capitalists did what capitalists do and tried to prematurely scam and squeeze as much money out of the idea as possible. Potentially forever ruining the image and possible impact the tech may have had.

Im pretty salty over what happened with NFTs. There were a lot of exciting things it could have been applied to. But no. It turned into money laundering with ai generated images.

[-] poVoq@slrpnk.net 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

These examples are wishful thinking based on some anecdotes at best.

Crypto-currencies are a multi-billion dollar business largely run by the worst people from the existing banking and investment sector and people are surprised that it is predominantly used for bad stuff?

It's not only an image problem and a few bad apples that spoil the rest, the technology itself is structurally predisposed for these kind scams and acts like a magnet for people with bad intentions, because they know this technology shifts the playing field in their favour.

Always a recommended read on this topic: https://drewdevault.com/2021/04/26/Cryptocurrency-is-a-disaster.html

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[-] frezik@midwest.social 12 points 1 year ago

I have yet to hear of a possible use of NFTs that would actually be useful. Stuff that was floated like in-game purchases or concert tickets don't solve any problems compared to the current system.

NFTs died out because scamming was the only thing they were useful for.

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[-] xnx@slrpnk.net 31 points 1 year ago

Gnu Taler is doing this. No new currency, no mining, and no fraud. https://taler.net/en/index.html

[-] grrgyle@slrpnk.net 17 points 1 year ago

Okay but who gets left to hold the bag? What kind of hyper-volatile get-rich-quick scheme is this anyway?? /s

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[-] Skua@kbin.social 21 points 1 year ago

I don't see where this post did that, though? It criticises crypto for failing to solve the problems it claims to solve and for adding additional problems on top, not for trying to address things that aren't problems

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[-] stanka@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago

Yeah exactly. There is a problem, crypto is a solution. Fiat currency is also a ponzi scheme.

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[-] blue_struct@feddit.de 32 points 1 year ago

Honorable mention: the GNU Taler project

https://taler.net/en/index.html

Could be a better alternative to crypto.

[-] Nomad@infosec.pub 26 points 1 year ago

There is so much misinformation here, it's hard to know where to even start. Yes there are crypto scams, yes legacy technology consumes way too much energy.

These are all solved problems, but it you only know about crypto from scams you might think there is nothing else. Crypto solves real problems with our current financial systems.

Wouldn't hurt to read from time to time. Solar Punk is as much about technology, as it is about knowledge.

[-] WormFood@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago

crypto is just our current financial system but worse. more risk, more volatility, faster consolidation of wealth, slower transactions, and less actual utility. more than a decade on, there are only a very small handful of things you can actually buy with bitcoin, let alone any other cryptocurrency. what problem does that solve?

i do at least admire the utopianism of it - i'm not exactly going to bat for our current banking system - but if you see crypto in 2024 as anything other than a failed experiment at best then you're just delusional, it has completely failed to solve any of the problems it set out to solve and it has verifiably made the world a worse place

[-] TragicNotCute@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

If you’re actually asking what it solves:

Trust. Blockchain technology eliminates the need for trust where typically it would be required.

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[-] Natanael@slrpnk.net 15 points 1 year ago

Where's the solutions? Don't say "proof of stake"

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[-] DessertStorms@kbin.social 19 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I'm an anarcho-communist, so the future I would like has no money in it, virtual or otherwise, but we aren't there yet, and as long as we live under capitalism, I see no issue with making use of tools there to create parallel systems to those of the existing institution, to not only undermine them, but create a secondary system independent of the state to rely on (aka dual power).

It should be expected that capitalists would co-opt these tools, but that doesn't make our use of them less valid (or theirs desirable).

Them turning it in to an investment doesn't mean you do - if you're not buying (or mining) it to accumulate it, all it is is a token that allows you (if done correctly) to move money privately and securely, without capitalists knowing who is involved nor taking a cut or involving the authorities. I'm sure you can think for yourself of reasons why this would be beneficial for anarchists and other radical and revolutionary groups and individuals around the world, and the networks they create.

I don't know the podcast you've mentioned, but I agree that marketing crypto for profit definitely isn't punk in any way shape or form, but it's the marketing for profit part you should be taking issue with, not the tool they happen to be using to make the profit with (AI being a perfect example of another tool that can be used to either free or enslave us, dependent on who is in control, not on the tool itself).

Edit just to be clear: crypto is a big vague term that covers all manor of sins, I'm not an advocate for all or even most of it, but again - used correctly, it can be a really useful tool to have at our disposal.

[-] cerement@slrpnk.net 20 points 1 year ago

“… it’s not secure, it’s not safe, it’s not reliable, it’s not trustworthy, it’s not even decentralized, it’s not anonymous, it’s helping destroy the planet. I haven’t found one positive use. For blockchain, it was nothing that couldn’t be done better without it.”

—Bruce Schneier, Bruce Schneier on the Crypto/Blockchain Disaster

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[-] poVoq@slrpnk.net 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Them turning it in to an investment doesn’t mean you do - if you’re not buying (or mining) it to accumulate it, all it is is a token that allows you (if done correctly) to move money privately and securely, without capitalists knowing who is involved nor taking a cut or involving the authorities.

By participating in the market you provide liquidity to it, and that's the most important thing the ponzi scheme needs as it perpetuates the illusion of others that their coins are actually worth something. Sure, there are rare situations where someone would have a use for crypto, like fleeing an authoritarian state or so, but in the end any kind of interaction with these systems is like frequenting a business where you know it is used as a front for money-laundering by criminal enterprises.

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[-] SteveKLord@slrpnk.net 14 points 1 year ago

Thanks for emphasizing this. I was a bit disappointed in that episode. I don't remember any mention of decentralization which is integral to solarpunk. One of the hosts seemed to just respond to the other with a lot of whataboutism and negativity that just revealed a lack of understanding of solarpunk's relationship to technology. For example, promoting electric cars instead of public transportation and reducing the amount of cars on the rode. Maybe that was the both-sides-ism to create discussion but it seemed like a missed opportunity to really dive into solarpunk technology. Maybe someone from this community could reach out about our approach to technology. They seem like they'd be open to hearing different viewpoints from the solarpunk community.

[-] mojofrododojo@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

Valid points all.

if you'd like a fantastic example of how Crypto is going to fuck up power supplies, just look at Texas - they can't keep their statewide grid running, shit on their renewable strengths constantly, and cut deals with cryptochuds so they're PAID to stop mining. SO FUCKED-UP.

https://www.tpr.org/technology-entrepreneurship/2023-09-06/texas-paid-a-bitcoin-miner-more-than-30-million-to-power-down-during-heat-wave

[-] Glasgow@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 year ago

Crypto is cypherpunk not cyberpunk.

You can create new alternative economic systems outwith existing monetary systems. Global mutual credit, local exchange trading systems, etc. There are plenty of solarpunks and leftists in crypto and have been since the start.

Not really. This usecase is infinitesimal compared to speculation.

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[-] breadsmasher@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

I totally agree solarpunk and crypto should be separate.

however just talking about power usage - chains using “proof of stake” us something like 99.9% less power than “proof of work”. Ethereum (PoS) vs (Bitcoin) PoW power usage for example

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[-] Omega_Haxors@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Cryptocurrency is just fossil fascism disguising itself as anarcho capitalism. Anyone who took one good-faith look into crypto and didn't instantly become a communist as a direct result is full of shit.

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[-] krolden@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago

Not all cryptocurrencies are the same. Sounds like you don't quite understand their differences and just want something to rage about.

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[-] Luisp@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Ok here's the thing, crypto as a concept it's not a completely bad idea the main problem is that the entire ecosystem was kidnapped by scammers and vcs, most of projects are scams at this point and it's extremely difficult to even talk about the concept without talking about bitcoin, which is the worst offender. But there are small projects like nano that tried to bring back the original concepts after fixing the principal flaws like mining and by extension the transaction fees, of course as you might guessed this project isn't popular among crypto bros because there's no profit to be made from the currency itself. I think all of this is still in it's infancy and has potential to develop in a positive way, what it needs is to remove the idea of easy money and systems that prevent users from earning from trading, in other words remove capitalists from the equation

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[-] mojo_raisin@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago
  1. Who are you to define solarpunk? It's fine to disallow talk of crypto in the sub but I don't know that any individual or group has the right to define solarpunk at this point.

  2. Many coins are indeed scams, and many NFTs are scams. This does not mean the underlying technology is a scam. Many scams use the dollar. Somehow we have to get from here to there, from an exploitative unsustainable capitalist world to a solarpunk world. This will almost certainly mean many years in a state of transition where money of some sort will still be needed. Crypto currencies could be a tool on the path, I don't know but I'm not ready to throw out a whole technology because of some scams. In fact, it's usefulness for scams might actually be a sign of it's utility, just like cash.

  3. Fiat currencies also take massive amounts of power, and they are exclusively controlled by the bad guys. Banks have racks of servers and/or use cloud services, financial exchanges also run racks of servers and build microwave towers for fast communication.

  4. I know this one will sound incredulous to most, but have you considered that those with billions invested in the current system spend money to influence communities like ours and social media to make something that could be their kryptonite have a bad reputation? Isn't odd how the anti-crypto crowd is so uneducated on the topic and yet so rabidly against it? Why would people interested in changing the balance of power not have interest in a tool that has potential there?

Maybe crypto is not strictly solarpunk but that doesn't mean that it cannot be a useful tool in the transition away from capitalist control to solarpunk.

Those against crypto, how do you propose we get to a solarpunk world from here? What is the path? What are the tools?

  1. Anyone can define solarpunk as they wish.
  2. All coins are used for speculative investment, there's very, very little practical use going on.
  3. What a silly thing to say. Banking servers wouldn't use a fraction of the power mining operations do.
  4. Sorry mate this one is a bit kooky. Anyone who didn't drink the koolaid can see it for the ponzi scheme it is.
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[-] frezik@midwest.social 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Those against crypto, how do you propose we get to a solarpunk world from here?

Hold up, there's a huge leap of logic in this question. Are you saying there is a path if only we embraced cryptocurrency? If not, then why even phrase the question that way?

My answer, then, would be "Mu".

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[-] Olhonestjim@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yeah, I've worked on a wind farm that powered a Bitcoin mine built right next door, and another one that powered an oil refinery. Both felt pretty messed up.

[-] fruitycoder@sh.itjust.works 9 points 1 year ago

For general blockchain tech but built around leftist goals I would check out [The Blockchain Socialist] (https://theblockchainsocialist.com/)

Tech isn't evil, its a tool, building tools and using them for our goals is what matters.

[-] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

That website is giving me serious wolf in sheep's clothing vibes. In fact, I think it is a wolf in sheep's clothing. It's trying to bundle blockchain with various leftist concepts to make the grift less apparent. In this article on the website, under the 'Decentralized Autonomous Organization (DAO)' section, it says:

In Part 2 we discussed a bit about smart contracts, which are contracts written onto a blockchain in computer code. It can take many types of actions based on some predefined criteria. This is interesting for the Left because of blockchain’s immutability and it can offer trustless interactions between parties that can give certain protections to its participants. If we take this concept a step further, we see that it’s now not too difficult to say that you can create entire organizational structures on the blockchain which are not owned by a single person or entity. Or in socialist-speak, it creates an avenue to encode organizations where workers own the means of production removing Capitalist middlemen.

Decentralized Autonomous Organizations (DAOs) are usually one or a collection of smart contracts on a blockchain that interact with each other to represent an organization. That organization could be a company, a cooperative, a political party, a social fund or just a group of friends, there really is no clear limit to the type of P2P collaboration that could be made with a Turing-complete language. What makes DAOs special especially for socialists is that we can create organization with encoded Leftist principles based on inclusion and democracy.

This immediately triggered alarm bells from what I'd seen about DAOs in Folding Ideas video on NFTs.

TL:DW, DAOs are a scam, or if done with good intent, are easily exploited, and don't really solve anything.

Tech isn’t evil, its a tool, building tools and using them for our goals is what matters.

This tech is so obtuse and reliant on specialized knowledge, that it appears to almost exclusively be created and run by those with ill-intent. It may be possible to use, very briefly, in certain scenarios, as a useful tool. But it really isn't worth propping up as a good thing/tool, and we should be seeking better alternatives to any form of Crypto.

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[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 9 points 1 year ago

It doesn't have to be a wasteful if it's generated with clean energy. It doesn't have to be a scam, either. Just because it is those things IRL doesn't mean it has to be in fiction.

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this post was submitted on 08 Apr 2024
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