442
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 13 Jun 2024
442 points (100.0% liked)
News
23738 readers
2835 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
I really don't like comments like this. They imply that queer people are the cause of homophobia.
Homophobia is the reason some queer people self hate so goddamn much they lash out at all queer people while the original homophobes cheer it on. Also, some people are just awful, terrible monsters regardless of their sexuality.
Sure, there are self-hating people of all sorts of marginalized groups, but queer people are the only ones who get regularly talked about as if the people who oppress them are also queer.
You don't hear about Muslims being oppressed by secret Muslims.
I cannot provide evidence for this, obviously, but it would seem to me that most bigots are bigots because they're bigoted, not because they're secretly the thing they're bigoted against.
Religion isn't something intrinsic about a person. If you hate the fact that you're a Muslim, you can opt out.
You cannot opt out being queer.
Okay then, you don't hear about white bigots being secretly light-skinned black people. Pick whatever group you want. Queer people are the only one I can think of where it's regularly claimed that the people bigoted against them are themselves the people they are bigoted against.
Yeah, nobody says that people opposed to disability rights are secretly suffering from an invisible disability.
Nah it's a tale as old as time, we used to call it "the one who smelt it dealt it" but the principle is the same. The most fervent and vocal are often just trying to cover their own asses.
Can you name another example where bigotry against a traditionally marginalized minority is virtually always claimed to be coming from that minority?
I don't care to sit here all day thinking about it and I'm not sure I agree with that characterization anyway, it seems like you're just looking for a fight honestly.
Do you understand what I'm saying though, are you familiar with the phrase? Another is "when you point the finger at someone you have three pointed back at you." It's a fairly common bit of folk wisdom.
I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with your analogy where you equate suggesting all homophobes are secretly gay with accusing someone of farting.
How about "when you point the finger at someone you have three pointed back at you" is that better?
If you're in a room full of people, and you "lose" something, the person that helps look for it the most, the one who won't give up and is very curious about where your item "went" is the thief.
And yet you can't think of one other marginalized group of people where every time a finger is pointed at them, people claim the person doing the pointing is part of that group.
Curious that you don't find that problematic despite having no other examples.
Self-hate is a funny thing.
I wonder if that's a "law" yet ala Goodwin, Winslow, Murphy, etc. "The hate a person has for a group is proportionate to the amount of "denied/repressed belonging" that same person has to said group."
See, this sounds like you're saying queer people are the cause of homophobia, which is exactly what my point was.
That's not my intention and I'm sorry you took it that way.
I believe that was not your intention, but that is what makes it so problematic. When you suggest that most or all homophobes are queer, you're suggesting that homophobia is an internal problem, not an external one, even if you don't realize that's what you're doing. Because the inference to be made there is that if you really hate queer people, you can't be cishet.
I believe homophobia (and basically all other hate) is mostly an internal (mental) problem, you don't?
Ah I get it now, I guess I disagree with that inference but I see how it follows. More honestly I would say that most people aren't 100% straight/cishet and sexual fluidity is extremely common (though we're only becoming aware of it now) so the inference would be correct and most people wouldn't be homophobic.
Internal as in only involving queer people.
The point is it gives any cishet bigot an excuse to be homophobic because they aren't queer so it's okay. It's not bigotry.
If we're following it logically, they hate themselves at least in part because they're queer; it's self-hatred but they can be a self-hating bigot, they're not mutually exclusive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internalized_oppression
Again, this suggests that you cannot be cishet and bigoted against queer people. That the only people bigoted against queer people are themselves queer. Therefore anything someone who is cishet says about queer people no matter how offensive cannot be homophobic by virtue of having been said by a cishet person.
That's just basic extrapolation from such reasoning.
No, because the moment they say something homophobic they're queer thus not cishet, though they can still be bigots, it's a Catch-22, that's the point, to call the bigot the thing they hate.
Except that the person saying the homophobic thing knows they aren't queer. Which means what they said can't possibly be homophobic.
Let me put it this way- there is zero evidence that Charlie Kirk is anything but cishet. Now... we can draw attention to the issue of bigotry by just pointing out that he's a bigot or we can put the blame of bigotry on queer people themselves in some silly attempt at a gotcha.
I would say that the former is both less childish and less harmful to queer people.
Do they though do their peers? Does anyone? Again sexual fluidity is extremely common throughout our lives.
I honestly can't imagine him being with a woman so I disagree.
Yes.
I would say we put it on the bigot that said it, Charlie Kirk and not on any broad groups at all.
It's fun to be childish sometimes.
I'm not sure it harms queer people at all Squid.
See, again, you're saying that the only people who are homophobic are queer and it's no different from saying the only people who are ableist are disabled or the only people who are antisemitic are Jewish. I wish you could understand that.
If that's how reality works, you can provide me with statistics that show that the majority of homophobes are themselves queer.
Statistics might be hard. But there's studies https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/homophobes-might-be-hidden-homosexuals/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/roots/overview.html
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1743609516003192
Next to these studies there's also examples of staunch anti-queer people who later got caught being queer themselves, especially politicians.
That first one is paywalled, but I found it here: https://archive.ph/DwLa8#selection-707.0-735.328
I also find their evidence quite spurious:
For example, that last part measured impulsive reactions to things. Someone can have an impulsive negative reaction to the word 'gay' for many reasons and not be homophobic. If I'm raised by parents to hate queer people, even if I don't, I may have an instant visceral reaction to those words (the article even talks about parenting).
I can say this in my own life- I was raised by a father who was fanatically pro-Israel. I often have an immediate reaction to a criticism of Israel despite my total lack of support for that nation because I spent 18 years being told Israel was the only thing standing between me and Auschwitz. It doesn't matter that I know that isn't true. In the spur of the moment, before I realize what my reaction is, I can't control it. So yeah, if someone used that word on me and told me to instantly write down three words that come to mind, they might be very, very different than if they told me to wait even ten seconds before I wrote down my first word.
"You're a grown fucking adult" and your anecdotal examples is not evidence that the majority of homophobes are queer.
I will keep asking this- is there any other oppressed group where you would claim the majority of the people oppressing them are of that group? Are the majority of antisemites Jews? Are a majority of ableists disabled? If not, why is it only queer people who are responsible for their own bigotry?
Cool, I'm just going to flag you for your incivility.
I don't think it would be accurate to call someone like Ted Haggard or Marcus Bachmann or Jerry Falwell Jr "queer", as they are deeply closeted and conformist presenting. That said, I do see the consequences of prior iterations of conversion therapy produce a group of incredibly violent and sadistic "ex" gay men.
So I might say that violence against queer people has a cyclical effect and perpetuates homophobia, in the same way that violence against women perpetuates misogyny and violence against pocs perpetuate racism. Some of the people who have had their personalities systematically reshaped through physical and psychological abuse inherit the job of abusing the next generation. They are held up as symbols of the system's success and granted special privilege on the condition they continue the cycle of violence on behalf of the originators of the system.
But when you get behind the Ted Haggards and Marcus Bachmans and Falwell Jrs, you'll routinely find patriarchs fixated on their genetic legacy, who see queer children as a threat to their continued line. The real root of this problem is the fixation on race science and genetic bloodlines. The extremely high opinion that Ronald Reagan or Dick Cheney or Mitt Romney or Donald Trump have of themselves and the desperate need they have for large families that will propagate their own genes leads to this ideological revulsion towards children who won't also have large families.
Its the blue blooded aristocrat's need for racial purity that leads to homophobia. Brutalized ex-gay converts are simply their deputies, in the endless war on their own children and grandchildren in pursuit of even more offspring.
It's because it's a recurring theme.
Not that queer people cause homophobia, just a lot of homophobes turn out to fuck the same gender.
As I have said to others- You are talking about 18 actual people vs. every time any person in the news says something homophobic. That's the problem. There are, if you were to believe what is said, no cishet homophobes. They're all secretly queer.
It's just a random list, but there have been a lot more.
The point is, nobody believes they are all gay, just that many of the fervent ones happen to be. Or at the very least they have dabbled in the acts.
Like catholic church - very anti-gay, get altar boys have been molested at a very high rate.
So while 'not all homophobes', there is certainly a trend. And I dunno, perhaps it should be investigated deeper when you push on it like that.
And yet, as I said, every single time someone says something homophobic in the media, the claim is that they're closeted.
So I think people do believe that. They may not admit they believe it, but what else can be derived from that finger pointing every single time?
People do that to Catholic church as well, does that make you feel like EVERY clergy man is a predator?
It's just a coincidence, but frequent enough, to make that connection.
Same as here. And those same homophobes and fragile masculiners will sing praises about well-built male bodies. And keep almost exclusively male company.
There are people who oppose gay marriage because it works for them politically, but if their base shifted opinions, would support it 100%. But they keep it all on the down low.
Sorry, are you saying being a priest is an inherent trait?
You choose to be a priest, exactly as you choose to be openly bigoted and build your entire platform around it.
You don't choose to be queer.
And, again, every time someone says something homophobic, people claim they're secretly queer.
No one claims all pedophiles are priests, but people claim all homophobes are queer.
Would you claim all antisemites are Jews? If not, what's the difference?
Do you see a string of anti-semites discovering they are jewish?
No.
Do you see stream of homophobes caught with gay porn/orgies?
Yes, you do.
It's nothing more than that. That's the difference, and that's why people react this way.
People don't think too deeply about that. You make it seem like there is a conspiracy behind it, and that only gays can be homophobic.
I would say that everyone is a little big queer, and the more people deny it, specially going overboard, that means they are scared of it.
Why would people be scared of something so innocent? Most likely toxic masculinity or religious lies.
People don't think too deeply about their biogted beliefs all the time.
And, based on your "everyone is a little bit queer" reasoning, "everyone is a little bit disabled" with various problems so that means that anyone who is ableist and denies that and goes overboard isn't a bigot, they're a disabled person who is scared of being disabled.
Do you believe that?
Maybe you should think more deeply about such a belief rather than keep acting like that "queer people are the cause of their own oppression" is a reasonable position to hold
Well everyone is on a spectrum then... strictly speaking it's true. 😅