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this post was submitted on 13 Jun 2024
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I really don't like comments like this. They imply that queer people are the cause of homophobia.
Homophobia is the reason some queer people self hate so goddamn much they lash out at all queer people while the original homophobes cheer it on. Also, some people are just awful, terrible monsters regardless of their sexuality.
Sure, there are self-hating people of all sorts of marginalized groups, but queer people are the only ones who get regularly talked about as if the people who oppress them are also queer.
You don't hear about Muslims being oppressed by secret Muslims.
I cannot provide evidence for this, obviously, but it would seem to me that most bigots are bigots because they're bigoted, not because they're secretly the thing they're bigoted against.
Religion isn't something intrinsic about a person. If you hate the fact that you're a Muslim, you can opt out.
You cannot opt out being queer.
Okay then, you don't hear about white bigots being secretly light-skinned black people. Pick whatever group you want. Queer people are the only one I can think of where it's regularly claimed that the people bigoted against them are themselves the people they are bigoted against.
Yeah, nobody says that people opposed to disability rights are secretly suffering from an invisible disability.
Nah it's a tale as old as time, we used to call it "the one who smelt it dealt it" but the principle is the same. The most fervent and vocal are often just trying to cover their own asses.
Can you name another example where bigotry against a traditionally marginalized minority is virtually always claimed to be coming from that minority?
I don't care to sit here all day thinking about it and I'm not sure I agree with that characterization anyway, it seems like you're just looking for a fight honestly.
Do you understand what I'm saying though, are you familiar with the phrase? Another is "when you point the finger at someone you have three pointed back at you." It's a fairly common bit of folk wisdom.
I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with your analogy where you equate suggesting all homophobes are secretly gay with accusing someone of farting.
How about "when you point the finger at someone you have three pointed back at you" is that better?
If you're in a room full of people, and you "lose" something, the person that helps look for it the most, the one who won't give up and is very curious about where your item "went" is the thief.
And yet you can't think of one other marginalized group of people where every time a finger is pointed at them, people claim the person doing the pointing is part of that group.
Curious that you don't find that problematic despite having no other examples.
Self-hate is a funny thing.
I wonder if that's a "law" yet ala Goodwin, Winslow, Murphy, etc. "The hate a person has for a group is proportionate to the amount of "denied/repressed belonging" that same person has to said group."
See, this sounds like you're saying queer people are the cause of homophobia, which is exactly what my point was.
That's not my intention and I'm sorry you took it that way.
I believe that was not your intention, but that is what makes it so problematic. When you suggest that most or all homophobes are queer, you're suggesting that homophobia is an internal problem, not an external one, even if you don't realize that's what you're doing. Because the inference to be made there is that if you really hate queer people, you can't be cishet.
If that's how reality works, you can provide me with statistics that show that the majority of homophobes are themselves queer.
Statistics might be hard. But there's studies https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/homophobes-might-be-hidden-homosexuals/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/roots/overview.html
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1743609516003192
Next to these studies there's also examples of staunch anti-queer people who later got caught being queer themselves, especially politicians.
That first one is paywalled, but I found it here: https://archive.ph/DwLa8#selection-707.0-735.328
I also find their evidence quite spurious:
For example, that last part measured impulsive reactions to things. Someone can have an impulsive negative reaction to the word 'gay' for many reasons and not be homophobic. If I'm raised by parents to hate queer people, even if I don't, I may have an instant visceral reaction to those words (the article even talks about parenting).
I can say this in my own life- I was raised by a father who was fanatically pro-Israel. I often have an immediate reaction to a criticism of Israel despite my total lack of support for that nation because I spent 18 years being told Israel was the only thing standing between me and Auschwitz. It doesn't matter that I know that isn't true. In the spur of the moment, before I realize what my reaction is, I can't control it. So yeah, if someone used that word on me and told me to instantly write down three words that come to mind, they might be very, very different than if they told me to wait even ten seconds before I wrote down my first word.
"You're a grown fucking adult" and your anecdotal examples is not evidence that the majority of homophobes are queer.
I will keep asking this- is there any other oppressed group where you would claim the majority of the people oppressing them are of that group? Are the majority of antisemites Jews? Are a majority of ableists disabled? If not, why is it only queer people who are responsible for their own bigotry?
Cool, I'm just going to flag you for your incivility.
I don't think it would be accurate to call someone like Ted Haggard or Marcus Bachmann or Jerry Falwell Jr "queer", as they are deeply closeted and conformist presenting. That said, I do see the consequences of prior iterations of conversion therapy produce a group of incredibly violent and sadistic "ex" gay men.
So I might say that violence against queer people has a cyclical effect and perpetuates homophobia, in the same way that violence against women perpetuates misogyny and violence against pocs perpetuate racism. Some of the people who have had their personalities systematically reshaped through physical and psychological abuse inherit the job of abusing the next generation. They are held up as symbols of the system's success and granted special privilege on the condition they continue the cycle of violence on behalf of the originators of the system.
But when you get behind the Ted Haggards and Marcus Bachmans and Falwell Jrs, you'll routinely find patriarchs fixated on their genetic legacy, who see queer children as a threat to their continued line. The real root of this problem is the fixation on race science and genetic bloodlines. The extremely high opinion that Ronald Reagan or Dick Cheney or Mitt Romney or Donald Trump have of themselves and the desperate need they have for large families that will propagate their own genes leads to this ideological revulsion towards children who won't also have large families.
Its the blue blooded aristocrat's need for racial purity that leads to homophobia. Brutalized ex-gay converts are simply their deputies, in the endless war on their own children and grandchildren in pursuit of even more offspring.
Well everyone is on a spectrum then... strictly speaking it's true. 😅
Damn you dumb
Please do educate dumb me by providing evidence that most or all homophones are secretly queer.
There and their are gay af
It's because it's a recurring theme.
Not that queer people cause homophobia, just a lot of homophobes turn out to fuck the same gender.
As I have said to others- You are talking about 18 actual people vs. every time any person in the news says something homophobic. That's the problem. There are, if you were to believe what is said, no cishet homophobes. They're all secretly queer.