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Israeli strike hits Rafah area after Hamas barrage
(www.bbc.co.uk)
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this post was submitted on 27 May 2024
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That's great and all. I'm sure that works at the individual level. When your country enters an active war none of that matters, does it? So why bring it up?
Of course it matters! If your enemy kills 3 innocent people on your side and you retaliate by killing a million people on their side, it matters a whole fucking lot.
Hamas is bad. Very few people will dispute that. Israel has proven that, at this point in time, it is far worse because it kills far more innocent people.
Discourse on Lemmy is so stupid. It's so stupid. Like Facebook boomer stupid.
Is the IDF counter-attack proportional or is it excessive compared to what Hamas is doing? I would say it's absolutely excessive. How is that excess justified? I would urge you guys to put more thought into any of this discourse beyond "genocide; colonialism; apartheid; imperialism". Please, for the love of god. Try. When you use cheap logic, all you do is give more fodder to IDF --and I'm not a fan of IDF.
If I take your claim and analyze it logically it's not sound at all. The typical numbers game to counter whether the occupation is justified: More civilians dead = IDF bad. Pause. Think about this statement for a second. Do we measure justification for war based on the number of casualties incurred? When the allies bombed Dresden, did we find reason to defeat the Nazis even though many civilian casualties occurred? Yes, a calculated risk was made.
The question is: What ought the IDF do in this scenario with Hamas perpetually shelling them with rockets by planting themselves in civilian areas?
Dresden was a horrendous war crime too.
I can see how it's harder for you to argue against war crimes from other nations if you're an apologist for war crimes committed by your own ancestors.
But many of us don't need to jump through those particular rhetorical hoops. The barrage of war crimes in WW2 was part of the impetus for strengthening international law against that shit.
Agreed. Kurt Vonnegut wrote all about what he witnessed firsthand at Dresden. It was a war crime. "The good guys" can commit war crimes.
I never said it wasn't horrendous. Clearly the rules of engagement back then were different. That's not what is being discussed though is it? What do you think I'm saying? Can you TRY to steel man my position or do you only like to hear yourself?
Yeah, you're wrong.
"central israel". Key word. Also, not connected to what we're discussing. But thanks for sharing, I guess?
Sorry... you're comparing what Israel is doing right now to what allies did to a city in the country that was itself perpetrating the genocide? A country that was also itself invading Allied nations?
Is this opposite day or something?
Nop. I'm contesting your logic. Not comparing the countries. We are examining whether your logic holds up to scrutiny.
I don't even know what you think my logic is beyond "the more innocent people you kill, the less morally justified your position becomes."
Can you give an example of when that is not the case? Because I don't know too many people who think that the bombing of Dresden was morally justified.
Ok, so if Hamas kills more people that automatically makes Israel's actions justified?
If it was proportional? If it didn't involve innocents? Yes.
Is there any war-ever in history- that didn't involve civilian casualties? Any?
Is there any war ever in history that all actions on either are morally justified?
In war, you are allowed to kill innocents if necessary to achieve a valid military objective.
In this war, the IDF's objective is to destroy Hamas.
"Allowed" by whom? "Necessary" by whose metric?
If their objective is to destroy Hamas and they determine that the only way to do that is wipe out the Palestinian people from the face of the Earth, you're saying that's justified because it's their necessary military objective?
Yeah Germany also claimed it was attacked by Poland in 1939. Guess everything after was justified then... The US claimed to have been attacked by North Vietnam. Guess Vietnam was aokay then. Putin claimed to have been attacked by Ukraine before invading. Guess we should consider everything since then as self defense...
You're saying because some countries lied about needing defense no country should be allowed to defend themselves? What exactly is your point here? Is it possible some countries actually need to defend themselves?
Proportionality is simply not dependent on the question of who "started first" and you will always find something that is credibly or uncredibly put forth as "the beginning". This is why Israel tries to claim it all started on Oct. 7. This is why Germany argued Poland started arming and preparing for war first. This one is even technically true, but ignores the context of Germany already announcing its Lebensraum ideology back then.
That is the problem. There is a both a larger context and a direct context to the question of proportionality, where there is no plus points for being "just retaliating". Retaliation can be a legitimate goal, but only in the context of deterring from further attacks, like Iran did after the embassy attack.
You’re incorrect. War has escalation of force for modern militaries. My rules of engagement in Iraq were the similar to the poster above you. If someone threw a rock at me I couldn’t just shoot them.
You must not be a part of the IDF. They firmly believe that throwing rocks deserves getting shot
Cool. Are we talking about people throwing rocks?
No, we're talking about people lobbing a handful of rockets at a multi-billion dollar defense system that is more than capable of stopping such a small attack. Kind of like throwing rocks at a tank.
Then we're talking about a response of bombing tents that have no defense system. Kind of like using a tank to fire shells at a person in response to a rock being thrown.
It's just a handful rockets, amirite?
It's called an example. I was demonstrating escalation of force. You should maybe rethink how you talk to people. Being so rude and confrontational isn't going to bring people to your side of the argument.
Yeah, ok but perhaps be careful with the example you choose. There are people here who genuinely believe Hamas is literally fighting only with rocks. Escalation of force is a discussion to be had, but no one here is interested in that.
I'm not interested in people coming to my side, because oddly enough, more often than not I'm actually aligned with the people criticizing me on the actual positions.
My issue is more with people not coming to sound conclusions using sound arguments and just repeating sound bytes from social media. They aren't capable of engaging with any of these topics beyond really superficial levels.
Because it's a sound principle.
Genociding tens of thousands of people, half of whom are children, is not self defense.
@TheFonz I'm finding this conversation a bit puzzling.
You sort of sound like you want this discussion to cover all those tired Hasbara "talking points" and their common rebuttals on Americam discuasions or something, hence IsRaEl HaS A Right to DeFenD ItSelf.
This isn't a game or a logic 101 essay though. It's ordinary people from multiple countries discussing a humanitarian catastrophe that has killed over 37000 people.
Tell that to the tens of civilians they murder every time they fire a rocket strike into civilian areas.
A country is still responsible for the war crimes they commit, Israel just thinks it's above being held to account for war crimes, including genocide.