897
Harm Reduction
(lemmy.world)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 02 May 2024
897 points (100.0% liked)
Political Memes
9097 readers
2498 users here now
Welcome to politcal memes!
These are our rules:
Be civil
Jokes are okay, but don’t intentionally harass or disturb any member of our community. Sexism, racism and bigotry are not allowed. Good faith argumentation only. No posts discouraging people to vote or shaming people for voting.
No misinformation
Don’t post any intentional misinformation. When asked by mods, provide sources for any claims you make.
Posts should be memes
Random pictures do not qualify as memes. Relevance to politics is required.
No bots, spam or self-promotion
Follow instance rules, ask for your bot to be allowed on this community.
No AI generated content.
Content posted must not be created by AI with the intent to mimic the style of existing images
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
Well who showed up to a protest with just their own weak spindly body against a fully armored roided out line backer with decades of counter protest maneuvers and training.
The clownvoy were fucked but they managed to build a pretty good playbook for how to protest. Show up in a way that overwhelms the authorities and has no chapter in their playbook. I remember cities scrambling because they knew there just wasn't enough tow trucks in the city to do anything and most tow truck drivers were siding with the convoy.
Modern protesters are unappealing to most people to the point that every single person with a job would prefer to the be the boot and that's just PR. I've seen so many protests where I agreed with the cause but hated seeing the protests because they just set things back, never forward anymore.
Sorry... you're blaming police violence on the nonviolent protesters?
Sure, I'm blaming protestors for not being effective. And not specific to any particular event. In general most protests I see in my life have been useless and theatrics. Telling people to just show up and hope for the best in my mind is immoral, unethical and should discussed more.
That doesn't mean the violent police reprisals are the protestors' fault.
Dunking on protestors "not being effective" is just the worse. It might be useless to you, but to many it is a useful launching point of some meaningful discussions.
The worst is seeing important causes lose traction and ground others fought for because some group decides they want to take action without properly being prepared and organized.
Just because you're not prepared to talk about the protests in a way that gives traction to the issue doesn't make the protestors wrong.
What do you mean by not prepared to talk in a way that gives traction to the issue?
That these type of events are inevitable and one can prepare and organize to respond with solidarity that shapes the message in the way you think would be beneficial.
They're not inevitable and the ask would be that if you do something do it right. If people decide they will get to this point that they take greater care in representing the issue as they have now elected themselves as the face of it.
Going back to the fuck cars group. Most people know deflating tires is wrong and will make people angry. Going out and doing it for attention and saying its for climate change harms how serious other people perceive the issue. But my options are not be a coward or go out and show solidarity by shaping this message while I deflate tires. Its being responsible enough to know I don't have the ability to drive positive change publicly and so I find other ways.
You're not a very convincing troll considering you're on a forum where everyone can see your post history.
This one is worse than a troll. I'd call them a flooder bearing Palestine flag on their profile picture but almost calling for unconditional Biden support under all posts and a lot of comments of the same posts individually.
On second glance at their full profile, this is mostly a bot account utilizing some sort of Cambridge Analytica-style, actually trying to undermine support for Biden through the spammy, braindead "I'm on your side, let's support this thing with the same zeal and rabidness we criticize the right-wing with" false-flag operation on social media.
This has been every protest. Only in retrospect do most people think about protestors as being people fighting the good fight. Every single complaint I have ever seen for contemporary protests I have heard from boomers, and their parents, about the Vietnam protestors. My grandparents and great grandparents generations thought this way of those rebelling against the robber barony.
This is how it is.
I have been to a bunch of major protests in my life. This doesn't describe them. Most of them hold until the government uses violence to stop them. This is still the same shit people have been saying about every protest ever. If it's not too violent it's impotent and useless. The vast majority of the opinion of people about protests, at the time they are happening, is negative. Doesn't matter what the reality was. Anything short of a perfect gathering, where nothing, and no one, gets damaged, and huge change is made for a positive everyone can agree on, will be treated like you see protests currently being treated.
We're saying the same thing.
There's a reason for that. Protests are filled with people who don't have the awareness to know why opinion of them are overwhelmingly negative.
There is lots of room beyond your options here to have effective protests. The clownvoy showed a great example of this. To the point people were bringing their whole family down to listen to bands, have a bbq's and sit in hot tubs while the police couldn't do jack shit since they did not have the resources and since most of the resources they could access were owned by people who favored them.
I don't find the clownvoy effective. They blocked traffic aeverywhere they went along with intentionally creating insane amounts of noise, as well as having nazi's with them. Not a single place they went really had a good opinion of them. They were obnoxious, stopped people from going to work, destroyed property. The one thing they had going was that they were right wing, thus the police literally gave them special treatment and, unlike left wing protests, they had major media corporations acting like they were just the bestest people ever that definitely had no nazis with them. Even with the kid gloves and advocates they were still hugely unpopular in real life, didn't accomplish their goal, and got a number of laws written that effectively made what they did illegal everywhere it mattered.
Yeah, it's weird that they keep bringing them up. What exactly did they achieve with their infantile protest?
I see them as effective in that they were mobile and so large police couldn't stop them. Even if they did stop them they couldn't process them because they convoy made it so they would have to do much more work by having trucks and cars with them. They were effective in organizing. It was different enough. Other protestors seem to walk right into the cops fists all on their own over and over again. With some tweaks the convoy is a great example of ways to counter police efforts.
Nobody cares about the arbitrary qualities you think every protest should aspire to possess. What did the “clownvoy” actually achieve? Or was all this “effectiveness” for absolutely nothing?
I still see cars with convoy stickers. They achieved a protest that forced federal governments to shut them down because they rendered local authorities useless without any violence. That's more than any protest ive seen in my lifetime
They got blocked out of, and kicked out out of, places by normal police all over the place. The feds took over when they arrived DC, because it was DC. There is also that the police largely supported their protest. That had more to do with it than them not being able to. There was literally police chiefs and sheriffs telling their local media they would not interfere with them. If they wanted the riot police could have easily cut them off, cut off exit routes, and went in. They aren't the first mobile protest. They didn't do that because they police liked them. There are BLM signs, stickers, posters in a lot of places I go. Hell I still see occupy stickers and signs around. In fact those protests are still talking points where as I rarely ever see anyone mention the clownvoy anymore. People are already coming around to the fact that the Occupy movement was right, because middle america is now at a point where they can't deny what investment firms are doing as housing becomes unaffordable. I also see a growing anti-police sentiment, and that's not just me, the government, and independent research, is backing this up. As this sentiment grows people I knew who staunchly stood against BLM are slowly softening their stance. Saying things like "well, I don't agree with rioting, but I see why they were so angry" which is far toned down from the "their complaints are BS, and they are just a violent mob, who doesn't want to follow the law" a couple years ago.
Like I said before, hindsight perspective often shifts the large scale sentiment on these types of protests. It takes years, multiple waves of outrage, and growing discontent with the same things that are being protested, by the people who where originally in the "my life is fine, nothing is wrong" crowd. I am willing to bet that most people don't even remember what the convoy protest was even about, let alone become more positive about it. I haven't seen it mainstream headlines for a good while now, while I still even see protests from the Bush 2 administration being brought up.
I am not the one downvoting you BTW. I know it doesn't matter, but, ya know, etiquette.
Thanks though for saying it. Appreciate it.
protests are performative. that’s the whole point, they are a performance of deeply rooted values on the public stage so other people can see them. you know what else is performance? siccing the cops on those protests in a show of strength and nationalist dogma.
what did you want, non-violent speech against the murder of innocent brown people, mostly children, to happen deep in a cave somewhere where you can happily ignore it?
actually don’t answer that, i’m pretty sure that is what you want.
I'm arguing for more effective protests and you write this braindead stuff
What was the last thing you supported that had protests and actually got traction?
The Black Lives Matter movement gained political traction in several ways, including increased attention to issues of police brutality and systemic racism, calls for police reform and accountability, changes in policing policies and practices in some cities, and increased voter mobilization efforts focused on racial justice issues.
Hope this helps. 👍
How so? What changed?
I found after those protests, what people are left with is the impression that the BLM organization is corrupt since the right wing media brought heavy attention to the leadership and the way they stole funds from the organization. It lead to arrests and charges to the officers which is great but shouldn't require a global effort.
"Gained Political traction" is measured how though and I'm being honest here not trying to just shove things back at you. In my mind "bringing attention to..." falls so short of the amount of effort mobilized to this cause. I don't believe anything happened. And this is my point
Protesters showed up to poorly organized events. The effort and planning that went into this was organizers making facebook ads and putting up posters then hoping for the best. And the cops out maneuvered them at all angles. I watched city after city allow themselves to be corralled into streets where police were set up 24 hours earlier. It was so sad to watch that in our modern era that event organizers were just winging it given the access to technology we have. Any counter measures deployed were from other countries were the people attending these events do put effort and planning into it. Egypt and Japan and Asia where people figured out how to neutralize tactics that police would use.
Think about the scale. Think about all the people in all the cities globally who showed up to these protests and then consider what change and tell me that modern protesters are effective because I don't see how you can honestly say that.
Modern protesters are missing something. I don't know what it is. I don't know if its purposeful or naive or what but they are not effective. Its as if people just show up, wait for a beating and go home and that's enough for them because the can throw a patch on their backpack and tell stories around the quad about how they imagine so many people saw them get punched and now are on their side.
In the opposite direction, the republicans and conservative parties in North America forced the federal government to take action with a fraction of the man power and effort just by thinking ahead and doing something outside the box. It wasn't luck. It wasn't just showing up and hoping things work out. They had logistics figured out. They had used social media to build support. They anticipated police action and found ways to neutralize them. As I get older and older I keep seeing this play out. The left are not as smart as they keep acting like they are. And every time I see a bunch of them fall for shit I can't help but distance myself from the causes they say they're gaining support for by being beat in the head over and over again. My point isn't that the clownvoy accomplished their goals and were nothing but success. But I am saying what they did was better than showing up with your bags packed and a phone number on your wrist because you're just waiting to get arrested and charged. The use of vehicles to create a convoy that everyone can join or honk at and stand on over passes was some incredible PR for them, a show of support. I still see these fucking people on overpasses years after. I still see handfuls of cars with their stickers every time I leave the house. They overwhelmed the ability of the police to process them. They made the protest into a tail gaiting event drawing in the public. It was different and should give people a wake up to how we've been doing it wrong.
Its like Toronto Maple leafs. Sure they have fans that keep showing up and those fans are die hard fans. But how the fuck are you going to claim you're a good team if you can't secure Stanley cup in the past 50 years and if you can't be honest about that then you lose credibility and if you lose credibility how will anyone respect what you stand for.
Okay I’m really close to TLDRing you and just blocking but here’s one last shot in case you are literally just this ill informed. Please take this to heart as I am exhausted of having to explain this.
BLM the corrupt organization =/= BLM the decentralized movement. This disconnect is well knowing among BLM protesters and if you had payed any attention you would know this.
“Shouldn’t require global effort” bad faith and what the hell. I gave you an example, now you provide a successful populist movement that didn’t do organized protests?
“How so? What Changed? I don’t believe anything happened.” Literally intentional blindness. Some examples of police reform initiatives that gained traction following the Black Lives Matter protests include:
Ban on chokeholds and neck restraints: Several cities and states implemented bans or restrictions on the use of chokeholds and neck restraints by law enforcement officers.
Use of body cameras: Many police departments expanded the use of body-worn cameras to increase transparency and accountability in police interactions with the public.
De-escalation training: There has been a push for increased training for police officers in de-escalation techniques to reduce the use of force in encounters with civilians.
Community policing initiatives: Some cities have invested in community policing programs aimed at building trust and collaboration between law enforcement agencies and the communities they serve.
Civilian oversight boards: There have been efforts to establish civilian oversight boards or review panels to provide independent oversight of police departments and investigate complaints of misconduct.
Ending or reforming qualified immunity: There have been calls to reform or abolish qualified immunity, which shields government officials, including police officers, from being held personally liable for constitutional violations.
Was it enough, problem solved? Fuck no. But “I don’t think anything happened” is such a fucking disingenuous take it’s kind of sickening.
And honestly I don’t know that you even have a point for the rest of the comment. You’re chirping on and comparing an insurrection where people died to nonviolent protests to … sports for some reason? Absurd parallels to draw. Go and read about the methods of MLK era demonstrations I’m done with this.
Its a dismissive start and a trend I don't enjoy seeing on forums and sites where communication is the backbone of it. I guess the intention is to disparage and put you above myself. Something I saw a lot on reddit. Something I was hoping didn't trend over here.
And this is where protestors and the left in general shit the bed. They ignore how social all of this is.
Perception is reality.
One of the biggest fails on all modern protesters part is perception. Perception is reality and they often allow the other side to shape the narrative. That is what I am saying in all of this. This is such a basic concept it goes all the way back to Plato and the allegory of the cave. The fact it happened is proof of what I am saying. These causes are driven by unorganized, ineffective people who do not plan leading to ineffective actions that harm the cause they are fighting for. For the past decade I have watched this play out over and over and over again. Stuff like this was common.
And for the progress you described. We still see that its extremely rare anyone that police are held accountable cops are still doing what they do and in another 10 years we'll see the same shit with police vs the public. But look at the scale. It was a world wide mobilization and the result was a bunch of half measures like "training" and "looked into setting up new committees" all the while the police budgets have ballooned. Just a few weeks ago there was two cops firing pistols after one was hit by an acorn. Police still find ways to turn body cameras off.
Um, Gandhi?
Get out there and show them how it's done then.
Sure, I will not go out there and organize a useless protest or convince people to slash tires in the name of climate change leading to alienating more people to important causes. Seems simple.
Ahh so you are a coward. got it.
Why am I a coward?
My option in life is not get out and protest or not.
That's actually a driver of why I get pissed at these protesters. Its like in their mind the only option they have is protest regardless of outcomes. They have no consideration for consquences and demand everyone accept that what they do is a necessity. They can't fathom that what they are doing is hurting and driving progress on issues backwards. Like you're doing here, they will draw these hard lines of believe vs non believers.
I would put good money on the fact that many protests are driven groups paid for by entities that are being protested.
actually I know of one recently. The Loblaws boycott in Canada is a pretty good example right now of what I think is good civil action. People are building a community and inviting everyone in to participate. No one is Guilting others. But what happened is flyers started to appear saying "steal from loblaws". The main boycott groups rejected this and pointed out this was likely pro loblaw groups trying to get the general public to sway against the boycott. It is easily believable that many people online would have taken the bait if the loblaw boycott groups did not keep a level head. Unlike many other groups like the r/fuckcars sub reddit that encouraged people to go around town deflating tires of random people or other protesters that convince people to go block highways with just their own body during morning commute.
You claim you can get out there and do better but won't.
You are a coward.
No I don't claim that I can do better and that I don't organize people to show up because I would get them arrested and harm whatever cause I decided to drag people out to. That's the point I am making. If you're dragging people out you have their trust and if you're plan is drag them out, get their heads kicked, arrested and charged in the hopes that maybe people notice then it is cruel and immoral and people should do better.
Like what are you saying though. Should every person who talks about police brutality go become a cop and if they do not then they are a coward? How do you resolve that statement?