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submitted 1 year ago by TaviRider@reddthat.com to c/privacy@lemmy.ml

The legal situation is more complex and nuanced than the headline implies, so the article is worth reading. This adds another ruling to the confusing case history regarding forced biometric unlocking.

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[-] gomp@lemmy.ml 29 points 1 year ago

Makes perfect sense to me (not a lawyer, not a US person)... what doesn't make sense is how many people still think biometric is high security (maybe because of how cool they make it look in the movies?)

[-] Korne127@lemmy.world 57 points 1 year ago

Idk… you being forced to use your body against your will to reveal secret and private things sounds pretty awful to me

[-] RealFknNito@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

Biometric is high security against thieves and nosy girlfriends, not kidnappers or cops apparently. You need to be physically present for most of them which means it can't be done without you knowing. The problem arises when the person who wants access also has access to you.

[-] Zagorath@aussie.zone 8 points 1 year ago

Also not a lawyer or a US person, but from listening to American tech media, this has been an issue of some debate for a decade or more now.

The trick lies in their 5th amendment right against self-incrimination. Police cannot require you to give your PIN because that would violate 5th amendment rights. It has been ruled in some parts of America (but the ruling in other parts has been the opposite, IIRC) that you can be forced to give biometric unlocks. In my opinion this is kinda silly and inconsistent. It might be in line with the letter of the law, but it's certainly not in keeping with its spirit.

[-] Adalast@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

As an American and avid rights understander, it is not the 5th Amendment which this risks violating (which you did cite correctly), but the 4th Amendment, which guarantees protection from undue searches and seizures of your person, property, or effects. This is the whole reason for the warrant requirement and the reason you hear us bitching whenever something comes up that lets police or agents of the government acquire non-public access to information or property in a warrantless way.

An example: the police are investigating Mary's death and suspect you of having planned the murder in the Notes app on your phone, so they want to get into your phone. Without a court order (warrant), you have to give them permission. With the court order, you must give the passcode and/or unlock the phone.

Now, at this point, if your passcode happened to be 'I killed John02&' you could argue 5th Amendment protection because divulging the information would incriminate yourself in the crime, or a different crime.

[-] Zagorath@aussie.zone 4 points 1 year ago

I believe the reason the 5th is usually referenced is that this usually comes up in situations where the 4th is already not relevant. Either because there already is a warrant, or because you're crossing a border (which IMO seems like an incredibly sketchy excuse and would likely not have been accepted by those who originally penned the 4th amendment, but is at least well-established law at this point).

With the court order, you must give the passcode and/or unlock the phone

The thing is, case law has determined that this is not the case. Passcodes are fairly well protected, from what I've heard. You cannot be made to divulge them anywhere in the US, because of the 5th amendment, even with a warrant. Case law is more split on whether biometrics should be offered the same protection.

Though again, this is all my understanding of it having heard it third hand from Americans. Mostly from Americans who themselves are not legal experts, though I think I've at least a couple of times heard it directly from lawyers.

[-] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 3 points 1 year ago

They will try to scare you into unlocking your device. I would get a lawyer if you get arrested.

[-] refalo@programming.dev 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The bigger problem IMO is that the Constitution does not universally apply at or within 100 miles of a border, which is where apparently 72% of the population lives.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-14/mapping-who-lives-in-border-patrol-s-100-mile-zone

[-] astraeus@programming.dev 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yeah, it’s like if you kept a bunch of illegal things in a safe the authorities have the authority to force you to unlock the safe.

[-] TaviRider@reddthat.com 47 points 1 year ago

Authorities with a warrant can drill into a safe to get to its contents. That’s legally distinct from forcing someone to unlock the safe by entering the combination. It takes some mental effort to enter a combination, so it counts as “testimony”, and in the USA people can’t be forced to testify against themselves.

The parallel in US law is that people can be forced to unlock a phone using biometrics, but they can’t be forced to unlock a phone by entering a passcode. The absurd part here is that the actions have the same effect, but one of them can be compelled and the other cannot.

[-] Fester@lemm.ee 10 points 1 year ago

It’ll be interesting to see if it applies to facial recognition. In iOS, at least, you need to look at the phone to unlock it. That’s an intentional action. If you look to the side or close your eyes, it won’t work.

So if you’re conscious, you can’t easily be forced to unlock the phone with your face and eyes if you’re able to resist. But if you’re unconscious, then maybe they could use your face (assuming your eyes aren’t rolled back into your head because the cops gave you brain damage.)

[-] ShortN0te@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago

But you can be easily tricked. Even easier than with the fingerprint.

"Hey, can you look at those pictures?", shows some printed out pictures with the phone hiding behind and then quickly just dropping the pictures.

[-] Zagorath@aussie.zone 2 points 1 year ago

then quickly just dropping the pictures

Could even poke a camera-sized hole in the picture. And disguise it by putting that hole over something similarly-coloured.

But anyway, but of it is really that you can be held in contempt for refusing to unlock with biometrics, if they've got an appropriate warrant.

[-] ShortN0te@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago

Probably a "have a look at this" and the 2 seconds before you realize that you are currently unlocking your phone, would be enough.

[-] brygphilomena@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

They can also compel you to provide a key to the safe, should one exist.

The issue constantly is something you have vs something you know. They also can compel you to provide a document or item from within the safe, if they know that the item exists.

[-] ShortN0te@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago

Depends on the country you life in. And even in the USA it is to my knowledge not correct. They can try to crack it themself but you have not to comply.

[-] IsThisAnAI@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Nobody cares. It's easy. Folks aren't out getting arrested in mass, even in the United States. Unless youre out selling drugs or protesting while breaking shit it has no functional effect on your life in any way.

[-] BearOfaTime@lemm.ee 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Ah, yes, if you've done nothing wrong argument.

I still care whether government is being properly restrained in applying it's power against any individual citizen, because that citizen represents all of us.

Innocent until proven guilty, and all that

[-] IsThisAnAI@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

I don't care. I'm just saying the why.

TBH privacy advocates have largely put themselves into the position of the window ME UAC prompt. They are deaf to it and IMO it's a large part of the privacy community treating everything like an 11 and refusal to look towards a user friendly threat model.

this post was submitted on 19 Apr 2024
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