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Just a little friendly compromise, what could go wrong?
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 20 Mar 2024
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Hot take, Tankies aren't as bad as Zionists, and I know which group there's more of, and has more influence and power.
Both seem to be championing nazi rhetorics and methods.
One is doing that on a segment of a niche internet forum, and the other is doing that on millions of humans. Like I said, I know which ones worse. Zionists get people killed. Tankies yell about things that already happened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1930%E2%80%931933
Sometimes they don't talk about things that happened.
Is that worse than creating conditions to prolong ongoing genocide though?
First of all I AM NOT DEFENDING ZIONISTS.
However, the Soviet Famine killed between 5.7 and 8.7 million people and the population of Gaza and the west bank is only ~5 million, so the famine might have been worse, but no one wins when you play the suffering Olympics.
Its more power mapping than suffering Olympics. Tankies can only argue to justify things, there are no tankies in control of countries or influencing countries budgets and agendas. There are Zionists that control countries with massive militaries though. There are zionists in media influencing millions daily. You can be mad at tankies for defending things but they had no hand in perpetuating them, you cannot say the same of Zionists. Why spend time being mad at groups that don't influence anything?
They influence discourse on here, and if "The kulaks deserved it and the deportation of the Crimean Tatars was holsum" becomes normalized, I sure as shit ain't sticking around any more than I would stick around someplace where Nazis are normalized.
Spreading fascist talking points in an effort to discourage voters in the West from sending aid to Ukraine also has a very real effect.
The people actually effecting Ukraine aide are the conservatives who lean fascist. You're giving tankies way too much credit, they don't exist outside of niche internet spaces, and they certainly dont influence US foreign policy.
Oh, the lion's share of the blame belongs to them, absolutely.
They influence voters, who influence US foreign policy. The increasing hostility on the left (or what passes for it in the US) is very much fueled by online left spaces where such fascist talking points are tolerated or celebrated. Communism isn't as unpopular as it was for my parents' and grandparents' generation, and with that broader shift comes the possibility (and reality) of radicalism and sheer edgy fucking stupidity getting ahold of a minority of those shifting. Approximately 30% of Gen Z (and 27% of my gen, Millennials) has a positive view of Marxism (which is great!). If we assume only 10% of them are dumb enough to buy into tankie talking points, that's still some 6 million people.
I think a lot of people don't understand just how angry the younger people are with how the system is "working" today. It's almost hilarious to me how conservatives scream angrily about how "young people are communists and hate capitalism" without trying to understand why. When a person's prospects of outearning their parents (or hell, earning as much as them) are lowering every year, is it any surprise people are fed up with being exploited?
Interestingly, I suspect that we are seeing an uptick in tankie-like behavior because of that anger being directed at a single entity: the United States. It's a lack of understanding nuance paired with anger that is driving the sort of "anyone against America is good because America bad."
(To be clear, the US has and continues to do fucked up shit, but it has also done positive things as well, which is why nuance is important here)
Yeah. The status quo is fucked. The rise in leftism is the only solace I have. The kids are alright, I hope.
You ever see Tankies outside of Lemmy or old CTH on reddit? Because Ive been organizing since my 20s and met just one in real life. I would be flabbergasted if there were more than 1% of the figures you pointed out were tankies, let alone 10%. Also tankies don't believe in voting and are still dwarfed by other sources of misinformation. The tankies make themselves nice and loud, they're very easy to ignore. Unlike the types of propaganda that get injected into Meta platforms and Twitter. I still think you're swinging at ghosts because its easy to do.
Lets say tomorrow there are no more tankies, they magically never existed in the english speaking world, what actually changes for the US?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2018/04/04/only-two-thirds-of-american-millennials-believe-the-earth-is-round/?sh=e7dd4067ec66
Theres more flat earther Millennials than tankies by either estimation we use too. Can't wait for them to influence foreign policy.
Luckily, flat earth has few foreign policy implications yet. But general hostility to science, the root of flat eartherism, is definitely something that has had noticeable effects on our society and politics.
I said 'buy into tankie talking points'. The point isn't that the 10% (itself just a random number, of course) are tankies, but that 10% are influenced by the shite that tankies spread.
Although I would emphasize that there is a certain percentage of people who are batshit insane on any given issue, and some 10% of Americans are tolerant of fascism. 10% of Gen Z going tankie instead doesn't seem that far-fetched to me.
This is true, but as mentioned, it's not even about them, specifically - but what effects they have on discourse.
Yeah, if I was in charge of a NGO dedicated to combating misinformation or something I wouldn't be dedicating many resources to tankies specifically.
Support for Ukraine increases by 2%-3% points as a very loud (as you note) minority is no longer amplifying misinformation and propaganda under the guise of combating the absolutely fucked state of our society.
I'm glad my posting offers you some relief! I like to remind myself now and again that most people on here are sensible sorts.
they're taking over my local organizing scene.
same. I stopped being active in my trade union because my local's case officer has had his brain rotted by Grayzone and Dore etc, he harassed me for months with late night messages that "no Russia doesn't target civilians on purpose" "Bucha was maybe a Ukrainian false-flag", and publicly accused me of being a Nazi supporter for donating to a Ukrainian medical charity.
no help from the rest of the union because he always had plenty of fucking Glen Greenwald, David Sacks, etc tweets to "prove there are questions, he's just asking questions and unconvinced by NATO CIA affiliated narratives"
Tankies are poison.
I want everyone to get along, so I try to work with them, but it's hard sometimes because they seem more focused on building the party than doing the work
And neither of them are as bad as 1940s Nazis. And those aren't as bad Maoists. A rotten apple is a rotten apple no matter the variety.
Cops are rotten apples, So are nonprofit universities that use massive endowments to essentially be for profit. No one would claim they're just as detrimental to society as each other. One of the groups is clearly worse and it's surprising how many people are refusing to engage with that idea. If you think Zionists arent getting people killed and Tankies are, I really don't know what to tell you.
My friend, you are on a web platform specifically designed to engage in every conversation, including that one. The point everyone who replied to you is try to make is that you going into a conversation thread and sidetracking with no additional value has the same energy as saying "all lives matter" as a reply to black lives matter. No shit Sherlock, but you're not doing any good by throwing in "but, zionists" to the conversation at hand.
Is that comparison not me engaging in the discussion? Or is it only engagement when you agree with it? Zionists are killing people, right now. Tankies exist mainly online and their numbers are bolstered by foreign troll farms and sock accounts trying to create division. So sorry I don't want to buy into that outrage of people who scarcely exist.
You're right, it's engagement at the level of an "all lives matter" chud. I didn't realize that was the level of thought you were intentionally going for. Congrats I guess?
Again. Zionists are killing people right now. Tankies are the most minor of minorities. If you think saying Zionists are worse than Tankies is like saying all lives matter you're one of the kids Bush left behind, so congrats I guess.
You aren't engaging in the discussion.
You are derailing it.
Smells of Putin Propaganda because Russia gets rightfully criticised.
Putin proganda props up tankies talking points to foster division and outrage, outrage like this meme. What does russia have to gain from my stance of ignore tankies because they only exist online while zionists sre influencing actual policy, war and death? You cant just call everything you dont like russian propaganda, but thats about as lazy as most response ive been getting.
Tankies are as bad. They're just less powerful.
At least since the fall of the SovUnion