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this post was submitted on 14 Mar 2024
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> like in WW2, we have fascists to defeat
that's what leftists are saying, and that's why they are saying not to vote for democrats, too. it's like you're saying if we don't vote for mussolini, we'll get hitler. well i'm not voting for either of them.
Right, because the best way to fight fascists is to let them take over. Brilliant!
Oh, and do you not think Omar and the rest of the squad leans left? Because she just said she plans to vote Biden. Or they just not progressive enough for you?
>Right, because the best way to fight fascists is to let them take over.
you don't seem to get that mussolini was a fascist too.
Yeah, he invented it. You equating Biden with Mussolini? Because I'm not seeing the hyper-nationalism, the militarism, the subjugation of the individual for the state, the undemocratic holding of power, etc etc etc.
Unless you believe in the right-wing conspiracy theories anyway. Hmm...
oh. let me help you out:
he wrote the patriot act
he wrote the crime bill
he voted for every military intervention for the last 50 years, sometimes grandstanding on making them happen
i don't know about the undemocratic holding of power: i'm pretty sure that the appearance of democracy is a desirable trait for any authoritarian regime, but when less than half the eligible populace votes, how can you claim any government is democratic?
Patriot Act:
On October 23, 2001, U.S. Representative Jim Sensenbrenner (R-WI) introduced House bill H.R. 3162, which incorporated provisions from a previously-sponsored House bill, and a Senate bill introduced earlier in the month.[5] The next day, October 24, the Act passed the House by a vote of 357–66,[6] with Democrats comprising the overwhelming majority of "no"-votes. The three Republicans voting "no" were Robert Ney of Ohio, Butch Otter of Idaho, and Ron Paul of Texas. On October 25, the Act passed the Senate with a vote of 98–1. Russ Feingold (D-WI) voted "no".[7]
He did draft the Senate version of the '94 crime bill, you're half right on that one, though only half since his draft wasn't that different from the House version. Though I'm not sure that makes him a fascist.
Regarding the WoT, we were attacked, I'll remind you. Democratic countries responding to attacks does not make them militaristic fascists. Did we conquer anything?
Lastly, people have the liberty to vote or not. That supersedes any authoritarian requirement that they do so, in most people's opinions anyway. People are free to vote if they wish, and if they vote him out, he'll leave.
looks like you got your facts wrong AND you made excuses for military adventurism. are you the real fascist all along?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnibus_Counterterrorism_Act_of_1995
Let's just condense your two comments into one, eh? If Biden is in your book, then I probably am too. I think you're using a weird book though.
So, you must be referring to: Much of its rejected proposals were ultimately recycled as the USAPATRIOT Act of 2001 with Joe Biden's vocal endorsement.[8]
I suppose that works, though counter-terrorism does require tools to battle it. We're not pacifists either you know, Americans can be quite aggressive in personality sometimes. We are careful, however, to draw a distinction between militaristic conquest and defense. You'll note America is still the same size it was then, despite successfully holding both Iraq and Afghanistan for a time.
jesus.
this is really mask off.
vote for your favorite führer.
>You kids are cute
i wonder how old you think i am
Based on the flurry of responses, about average for internet.
it's really bizarre that you enumerated the things you think make a fascist, and when i showed you that, in fact, the usa is fascist, you have now actually accepted it, and instead of trying to do something about it, you're response is that it could be worse, so you're just going to vote for the status quo fascists.
i wish you would fight fascism.
No, I did not accept your arguments, I countered. Specifically, with the argument that our responses to being attacked do not qualify as fascist militarism, and our democracy is still in operation.
Then I elaborated that you are actually partly right. The US does have a fascist streak, a powerful one. And we have a huge nuke arsenal to boot.
Because of this, it is necessary to make sure the less fascist of the two candidates gets elected, yes? This is a practical way of fighting fascism. Some form of genuine pacifism would not be, unfortunately.
i don't believe voting for fascists fights fascism.
this lady knew what to do:
https://kolektiva.social/@MNSpy@mastodon.online/112094592668905527
I think you're just calling everything outside of pacifism fascism. Here's wikipedia on it:
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.[2][3]
While in his long career Biden has done questionable things and made mistakes, he was accurately representing his constituents with them. This does not make him a fascist, just a flawed politician. You do not have to be the opposite of all things fascist just to not be a fascist, you know?
I definitely am not suggesting pacifism, and I challenge you to find me ever doing so.
Well, you claimed our military responses in the GWOT made us fascist. The only alternative would have been to bend over and just take it. That's pacifism.
i assure i was not advocating pacifism. i am advocating the abolition of capital, wage slavery, and the state. i don't think anyone ever confused that with "pacifism"
there are a thousand other responses besides military adventurism. some of them were used along side of it, including increased surveillance of innocent people, criminalizing vast swathes of the populace, and restricting movement of people and money.
you don't need to "bend over and take it". you could very well figure out whether maybe we did something to cause it, and fix the underlying issues.
Sure, and I do think fixing those underlying issues is very important. But once attacked, it's bombing time, not reflection time. Then, how do you fight an organization that tries to hide its tracks? There's practical requirements. That doesn't make it fascism.
The GWOT was not Vietnam, we were attacked. People were warmongering hard, and so the government responded.
>But once attacked, it’s bombing time, not reflection time.
please seek help.
So, let's re-condense again.
Sorry, but to do otherwise is actually pacifism. When attacked and thousands die, you find and kill the attackers. I think that's not fascism. It's a far cry from the system Mussolini invented.
that's not what pacifism is.
Okay, what would you say the difference is?
passivism is a policy of never attacking. I'm not advocating for that. I'm saying the US is fascist and it's military adventurism in the Middle East was not justified. in fact it was our military venturism in the Middle East that caused the 9/11 attack. The response should not have been to attack, it should have been to fix the problems, at least some of which included our bloated military and our abusive financial system. instead we inflated the military more and made the financial system even more abusive and incorporated it into a surveillance state.
I agree that the underlying problem of the military-industrial complex was a causative element. But the previous war to that, of defending Kuwait in Desert Storm, was a defensive war. That was a UN force composed of dozens of countries, hosted by Saudi Arabia, not simple adventurism. The Kuwaitis asked for help.
kuwait isn't what caused 9/11
it was our abandoning of the mujahideen.
They won though, they defeated the Soviets and kicked them out. With some of our help. Why attack us for that?
russia left, but not before we abandoned them.
it was an overt betrayal.
that doesn't make the us any less fascist, it only means that they did something that also benefited other countries. it also bolstered their own military profile, which certainly serves to preserve the power of the state.
I don't disagree that it strengthened the state, and the MIC. I just disagree that there's somehow no distinction between these things and fascism. Not all states using their militaries are automatically fascist or something, it takes more than that.
a modern nation state with a mechanized military is absolutely indistinguishable from fascism.
they will do whatever it takes to maintain the power of the state to field that military, so they will do whatever it takes to maintain the power of the state. everything else, the trappings of law and order, the facade of democratic control, the illusion of economic freedom, they will only exist so far as they are necessary to maintain state power.
under pax americana, our mutual defense treaties have relieved many states of the necessity of fielding their own military to the extent necessary to defend their state, but the mutual defense treaties make them absolutely complicit in the fascism of the states capable of defending them. in particular, the usa, but any other military power as well.
opposing the creep of outspoken politically fascist movements to seize the reigns of these technocratically fascist states is secondary, in my consideration, to the dismantling of the technocratic fascist states.
it seems that you are content to tolerate the fascist state so long as someone you can't identify as politically fascist controls it. i am not.
Still seems like a poor excuse to attack, after we helped. I could see being angry about being abandoned, but attacking is a strong measure.
I see. Personally, I prefer the older, textbook understanding from back in the 20th century. That's fascism. What you describe would need another word.
So long as we maintain civilian control of governance, aren't erasing our domestic out-groups, aren't subjugating our individuals and removing the possibility of social mobility, etc, we're a distinct thing imo.
We do flirt with these things, for the record, but an actual fascist regime taking over in the US would be a terror the planet has never seen before. We'd win where Hitler failed, mainly because of the nukes, and a likely alliance with Russia.
>>aren’t subjugating our individuals and removing the possibility of social mobility,
this absolutely happened under biden's crime bill and patriot act, and now he's in the presidency.
>So long as we maintain civilian control of governance
we don't have that. the pentagon flat out lied to trump about carrying out his orders.
When?
And yeah, but he jumped on board once Hitler started. Until then he just suppressed democratic elements.
https://americanmilitarynews.com/2020/11/us-official-admits-misleading-trump-on-us-troop-numbers-in-syria/
damn, looks like they won't tell the truth to congress, either:
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/12/06/jan-6-generals-lied-ex-dc-guard-official-523777
Jan 6th was an actual coup attempt, however sloppy, and that Gen. Flynn is the brother of Trump's Nat Security Advisor. So, yeah, I'm sure there is a lot of shady shit that went down that day, many people still have not met consequences for it. Trump is even running again.
The Syria thing is new to me. I can't say I disagree though, I was always upset that we bailed on the Kurds after all the work we did together. Not just aid like with the Mujahideen, but fighting side by side with them. We saved the Yazidis together. That guy is lucky he's retired though, that's not acceptable behavior. He would have been punished for it if he wasn't already out.
> aren’t erasing our domestic out-groups, aren’t subjugating our individuals and removing the possibility of social mobility, etc, we’re a distinct thing imo.
mussolini never proposed these be part of fascism. only the primacy of the state.
the us is fascist, and the war on terror was just an expression of that.
your wikipedia definition is the same one i'd use to support my case so maybe one of us is politically illiterate.
>Unless you believe in the right-wing conspiracy theories anyway
what right wing conspiracy theory are you talking about? this appears to be an attempt to pigeonhole me and my legitimate criticisms.
Only way I can think of Biden fitting the fascist glove, is if someone believes Trump's lines about the election. Otherwise it just doesn't make sense.
oh, i just know what fascism is and i know the US has been fascist for decades.