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this post was submitted on 08 Feb 2024
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sometimes men are convicted of sexual assault wrongly, but these cases are few and far between, and are an insignificant fraction compared to the number of sexual assaults committed. Believe women.
edit: did I fucking stutter? BELIEVE WOMEN!
Since it sounds like some of you are at a loss for words, I just want to mention that I am a cishet guy who was scared if false accusations until I looked into how unbelievably rare they are when compared to the actual problem of legitimate sexual assault and rape cases. I’ve been falsely accused of rape, from another guy, when arguing about this very topic. I never went anywhere, other than him privately messaging me afterwards to tell me how correct I was (after getting his ass handed to him by the women in his life, no dobut).
handy guide to my positions:
I, for one, believe in equality. We cannot say we seek it in one hand while placing another's rights above someone else's in the other.
Broadly speaking I'm against over defining boundaries - they are used to label and divide people. People divided are weaker.
To your point of believe women - I want to ask why does that mans word bear less weight than hers? Traditionally people leading with that mantra will continue with "don't punish her... it will drive away others who need to step forward." Truth is truth. Equality should be equally distributed. She should be imprisoned for the same time and provide damages for the irreparable damages caused to his life.
If we are willing to convict on just the assertions of one party equality will continue to exist. There needs to be a strong understanding that decisions have weight - even bad ones.
Cases such as these need to also be handled properly to protect /all parties/ involved. Proper research, proper due process, all of it- before anything is made public. Gossip and slander is equally damaging. If due process is followed and both parties are respected this problem is minimized.
This is a tricky discussion to navigate as I'm sure this could devolve into discussions of il intent etc... so for the sake of keeping things civil I'll say that people, humanity in general, is capable of being absolutely shitty and nothing will change that. What we should look to do is minimize the collateral damage as best we can and do our best to safeguard against it.
I can understand that men are scared of this, but it’s no reason to propagandize about the issue. While the boys in this thread circlejerk their victimization, women are being raped as I type this, probably women you know. They won’t tell you thos because they know the men in their lives are much more worried about a false accusation - which are so rare and usually lead nowhere.
brave up, boys. women need us to be brave and to accept the reality they live every day of their lives.
"Some of you will be wrongly convicted, but that's a risk I'm willing to take." shouldn't be the goal my dude. You've gotta try harder. Don't just believe women. Believe evidence. Believe facts. Leave hearsay out of it. This is not a difficult concept.
You’re strawmanning my argument here. false convictions for murder also happen.. should we all be worried about false accusations of murder now too?
Is there a reason you’re so afraid?
YES! WE SHOULD BE WORRIED ABOUT FALSE MURDER ACCUSATIONS ARE YOU INSANE?
Then why aren’t we discussing that? But also, what are you doing to put yourself in the situation where you could be falsely accused of murder (besides having an offwhite skin tone, of course)?
My point being, we should also be afraid of stray bullets coming from the sky. Or cardiovascular disease. Or drunk driving.
Lots to be afraid of. are we prioritizing correctly though? When looking at statistics, it seems we probably shouldn’t sweat the false rape or murder accusations, unless we are doing shit which might make sense where we were accused. In that case, what are we doing, boys?
I... Yes. Yes these are all problems. Yes, they should all be addressed. You're being incredibly disingenuous with your arguments, and allow me to add, heavily condescending by your liberal use of the term "boys" in this context. I legitimately don't believe you're capable of arguing in good faith about this. But, in closing, allow me to speak plainly. To wit, a false accusation with actions behind it functionally ends a life. The life of the accused ends that day. They may continue living, but no longer in the same capacity. We should have a higher bar than a single party accusation to end the life of another. If you do not believe that to be the case, then that speaks volumes more about your mindset than the issue at hand.
Well that’s just like, your opinion, man.
You mean to say, you don’t have any rebuttle to what I’m saying. Name one case where I’m arguing in bad faith. Maybe I just need to explain myself further.
I wouldn’t ask for anything else from you.
Agreed. Also things which “functionally ends a life”:
Yeah, I understood what you meant by “functionally ends a life”, please consider the list I have provided (all things which happen orders of magnatude more than men being falsely accused, let alone imprisoned because of a crime they didn’t commit.
Careful what you wish for here. The bar is already pretty high, and you’re sowing more FUD trying to convince people that they should be more concerned being falsely imprisoned from a rape accusation than concerned for the actual people raped. and sending the rapist to jail.
Your vague bar of “single party accusation” is lower than the current legal standard for imprisoning someone for rape. That’s my point. You’re spreading FUD saying that isn’t.
This isn't a fear thing. This a "what's right" thing. Your statement falls apart the second you apply it to any other social situation. What about applying that to two gay men? I guess they just need to implode as they are both and neither of what you villanize and empathize with. Two women? What about applying this view to race? It just doesn't work. Equality is equality. If it is unbalanced it simply makes the situation worse for all parties. This is precisely why I made my closing statement. Should I not defend a man being beaten because he is a man? I should defend a person being beaten because it is wrong. period.
It’s not about what’s right though, because this topic is about the number of times WOMEN are raped, (which kits go unprocessed, which MEN disbelieve). is that right? should we allow rape kits to go unprocessed and create a culture of fear around the idea that something which happens so rarely? Like guys there are women who kill their partners, wouldn’t you think that would be a little more terrifying? I bet the statistics of that happening are even higher than the statistics of being falsely accused of rape as a man.
I am making the gender distinction because in our society it is relevant. want to talk about two women or two men where one is falsely accused of rape? ok but wouldn’t that statistic be even lower?
guys should we fear ants? ants in large numbers could kill you know.
guys?
So that makes it okay? Not your problem? What about raped men? Sorry we lack 'kits' for that. Cowboy up.
My assertions are that rape is bad. On this we agree.
Rape accusations are bad too. By definition rape is a violation of your person, deeply damaging, and can leave someone permanently mentally scarred for their life:
I wonder if that false accusation resulted in that exact thing to the man? Nah. Doesn't matter. Cowboy up. I'm sorry - we fundamentally disagree on this. No person deserves inequal treatment. People are capable of unthinkable acts of cruelty: sex, race, religion is irrelevant. This story is an example of that. Broaden your views. Apologists make the problem worse, not better.
You’re strawmanning my argument. Men are raped, and that’s a concern. The way society views men who are raped as less than men is a problem. Get your head out of your ass and stick to the topic: why should we create a culture of fear around something (false rape accusations against men from women) that does happen but happens so rarely that it’s only really ever brought up to propagandize?
I am highlighting your own statement and showing you the flaw in your reasoning. Your response to every single person you've engaged in this thread is "strawman," which isn't correct. A good strawman would be to say: yeah it's a shame that guy's situation but... (insert diversion). Ponder that for a moment.
As I said. We agree in rape being awful... as we should. My views are unbiased. We won't agree on this.
To your point on rape kits: 'rape kits' are multi part examinations. They ascertain if the party had sex. They look for "evidence" of the partner. They look for indications of injuries. They record a statement. The issue lies in all of this data being circumstantial. This isn't some silver bullet that you think it is. Being an apologist for someone because, arbitrarily, bureaucracy and resources are a problem is a terrible platform to stand on. Which of us has our head buried in something here?
You’re arguing against rape kits now? wild. Should we institute mandatory body cams for all women now?
You’re saying a man’s semen being in a woman when the woman said she did not want the man’s semen in her is not evidence of her being raped?
Absolutely wild, my man.
If that is what you gathered from what I said you are either a troll or beyond the point of being conversational with. Either way- I hope you find peace.
I gathered that you are spreading misinformation. I gathered that you decided you has nothing to reply with that wouldn’t admit that I am correct so you called me a troll. I gathered that you misunderstood how people have been strawmanning my argument.
I replied to the most obscene part of your comment first. No rebuttle? I hope you find peace.
Alright, I'll let you entertain me more.
Let's start with your assertions that I am spreading misinformation: quote the statement. Explain your reasoning for believing that. If you cannot? Further conversation isn't possible and you'll have only reinforced my earlier assessment of you.
Assuming we can clarify your assessment of my statement we can continue to play. Your move.
Rape kits take samples of DNA. DNA is a type of evidence known as “real evidence”.
You can’t just say, universally that all rape kits are circumstantial. Doing so would be misinformation.
Yes, the last link was pasted from wikipedia. If you’ve got a better source that says that all rape kit data is circumstantial, please provide it. Until then, I think the people’s encyclopedia is good enough for the sake of our discussion.
For reference: https://www.surviverape.org/forensics/sexual-assault-forensics/rape-exam
Educate yourself.
If you find fault in its information... I'm happy to cite other sources... but you will need to specifically point out what invalidates it.
Very good. That aligns with what I said.
All evidence is circumstantial. DNA confirms the presence of a person. Hair and bodily fluids all indicate the presence of a person. Certainly that can include sex. Sex however does not immediately indicate rape - thus circumstances matter. This defines it as (wait for it) circumstantial evidence.
Now that we have clarified this basic fact: I cannot help but notice you have somehow not pointed out one incorrect thing with my statement. I'll forgive you for getting lost in your hand waving- care to try again?
Providing a link and saying “educate yourself” does not refute this claim. The link doesn’t even mention circumstantial evidence, which is what you are claiming.
Please provide evidence of your claim that all rape kits are circumstantial evidence.
You only need to cite one reputable source. But it has to actually validate your claim is the thing.
So your new claim is that all evidence is circumstantial. Ok, you now have 2 claims to prove.
Well, you haven’t done that yet, but keep trying, champ!
https://www.egattorneys.com/circumstantial-evidence-in-criminal-cases
You can pick through that if you like. I've been plenty clear about everything up to this point where you have, at best, resorted to mimicry.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/imitation-is-the-sincerest-form-of-flattery
Compliment received. Thank you.
I'll be happy to reengage you if you can provide something worth discussing. But I could have the current discussion path you've fallen down with a parrot.
I don’t give a shit about debating you bro. I just want you to believe the women in your life when they tell you that they’ve been raped.
Fuck’s sake man. Get over yourself.
Blindly believing women is what got us to this, its silly to decide someone isn't a liar by what's in their pants. We should instead believe whoever has more solid evidence
Belief is the acceptance of something without evidence. evidence is part of the trial. lots of rape kits go unprocessed. revise your statement.
Nah my statement is fine
Here’s the thing: statistically speaking, you know a survivor of sexual assualt or rape. Statistically speaking, that person is a woman, or women in your life. All I ask anyone in this thread is that if and when they come to you and tell you that they’ve been sexually assaulted, that you believe them. Even if that person is a man, maybe especially so, believe him.
This isn’t about “women should be blindly believed” - how could anyone think that, this person went to jail, went to court first, had a trial, etc. This wasn’t a woman “blindly believed” and then put in jail. This was an innocent black man who was jailed, and that’s a bit more common. Despite what the content you consume might tell you, we aren’t living in a society where women are “blindly believed” for fucking anything, my guy. It’s understandable not to believe someone you don’t know, which is why I’m just asking you to do it for the people you do know. This shouldn’t be a difficult ask.
Just to be absolutely clear because it seems like I need to - false accusations, false imprisonment for crimes, including rape does happen. However, at least in the case of rape and sexual assualt, far more women are raped without ever telling anyone (as they are either in unsafe situations they can’t escape and/or have been told they will be killed if anyone finds out), far more women go through a rape kit examination but those kits sit unprocessed, far more women go to trial only to find their rapist (as in, the guy who actually raped them) go free, than do men go to jail for being falsely convicted of rape.
If you can, consider reading this thread from the viewpoint of someone who’s been raped, but who (for reasons mentioned above) never saw their rapist go to trial or never be convicted; who may have lost their job because their rapist was their coworker and now no one feels comfortable working with her because “he was such a nice guy he couldn’t have done this she must’ve just had a bad date or something”, etc.. Statistically speaking, survivors of sexual assault have already done this. Read through this thread, full of men displaying their scrutiny for women who women who say they were survivors of sexual assault.
I don’t know the details of this case. Maybe this woman was still raped, and maybe this was mistaken identity. There’s very little incentive for a person to go after an innocent person for sexual assault. There’s very little incentive for a person to lie about being raped. This isn’t some sort of “weird trick” that “men hate” that lets women jail any guy who crosses them. I’m not advocating for any gender discrimination when it comes to sentencing. Before all that, for the women in your life who have been survivors of sexual assault, I just ask, please, for them.. believe them.
I'm not about to read all that, have a good day tho man
I knew you wouldn’t. There’s a reason you’re unfuckable.
Lmao what? I'm just not reading an essay on why you should believe people with no evidence. Hope you find peace
Quick and simple explaination: “I'm just not reading an essay on why you should believe people with no evidence” you said regarding a short comment (sorry, reading is hard innit?) basically where I said “believe the women in your life”. You’re saying “why believe [my girlfriend, my wife, my mother, my friends, etc] when they come to me [someone they trust] and say they’ve been raped”, and that’s why you’re unfuckable. Women don’t want a guy who’s going to call into question something they wouldn’t lie about. Get real, man.
See was it so hard to put it all in one paragraph?
No. I just thought you were capable of reading. I guess I was wrong.
Ahhh so you enjoy wasting time
I enjoy wasting your time.
Is that what you're telling yourself to feel better
Name checks out.
And you can’t even come up with a rational rebuttal. What would that make you, besides a coward?
I'm proud to be a coward.
It’s a common sense of pride for republicans. Is there a reason you take pride in being afraid of things which will likely never happen to you? What other boogeymen make you scared?
Fear is valid, but not to the extent where we allow our family members, our loved ones, our grandparents to continue to be raped, because “he’s always been such a nice guy to me” (men are sometimes monsters when not around other men) or “women usually exaggerate because of a bad date” (no, not usually, this isn’t the norm) or otherwise painting the justice system as rigged against men (it’s very much more rigged against women).
I’m not saying you yourself have made any of these claims, you haven’t. I am saying that when people bring up such old cases it’s because it doesn’t happen often and they can’t find a recent one. Spreading FUD, these stories make men fear a false rape accusation more and more which affects how many men actually believe women when they bravely risk their career and life to try to get a conviction the crime committed against their body.
I assume you don’t want to be raped, so I asssume you can empathize with wanting a rapist to have a conviction. I would believe you if you told me you were raped, even by another man (and I would not judge you for it - nothing to judge). I would want you to get your rapist convicted too, even if your rapist was a woman. “Believe women” doesn’t mean “weigh the opinions of women over the opinions of a man” as a blanket statement. “Believe women” in this context means that this post existing already is causing women who have been raped to reconsider pursuing a conviction because of the implication. The implication that people won’t believe them, that they will just think “they had a bad date and don’t like the guy” or whatever. That’s a problem, regardless of gender. Believe the survivor.