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(lemmy.ml)
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this post was submitted on 30 Jan 2024
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I don't support fascisms, but I also don't support violence and property damage to get the message across. I will never take a "movement" seriously that uses vandalism to get a message across.
In that case, I suppose you also oppose the Civil Rights Movement, considering it too was often violent and had a significant amount of property damage.
I would oppose their methods, not the movement (ideology, cause call it what you want)
But their methods were a result of their material conditions, and resulted in the liberation of Black Americans from segregation. Do you not equally take fault with the white moderates who opposed ending segregation and used disapproval of their methods as rhetoric?
Unfortunately, when protests get extreme, there is inevitably some level of violence, whether that be to people or property. It is the responsibility of the state to prevent it from getting this bad. People don't just think "hmm, today I will do some violence," violence erupts as a consequence.
violence is inevitable, oh joy
Not what I said. If protests last long enough and are founded on unsustainable material conditions, the State has failed and protests will become Riots. "Riots are the voice of the unheard," after all.
If you think peacefully asking people to stop being pieces of shit works, then you learned a completely whitewashed version of the Civil Rights Movement. MLK led marches and tried to maintain peace, but alongside the militant Black Panthers there was genuine revolutionary pressure that forced the state to act.
Even that's a terrible view, politics aside.
I slap someone.
I shank them with a rusty scrap of metal to the neck
One of these is obviously worse. Yes, both are violence. Yet to simply try and paint them as such would show you're either not arguing in good faith, or, as respectfully as possible, your brain hasn't fully developed.
But let's mix it up. I slap someone. But I, a man that's 6'2" and does physical labor, slapped an infant for crying. Seems a little worse than it did at first, huh?
I am being attacked by a random person who is trying to murder me, and in a panic, I grab something, and attack him with it. Turns out it was a rusty piece of metal. Now we have hints of self defense.
Once again, still violence, but both were to different degrees, and the context changed both of them.
Why can't the oppressed peacefully get their rights from their oppressors?
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable.
Yeah, Hitler would have stopped if somebody just asked him nicely. I don't like violence either, but you can't defeat fascism without actions.
"I'm all for trying to protect people and save lives, but you used vandalism!" Clutches pearls in a death grip
What about violence? Murder? Mass Murder? Where would you draw the line, which reaction is out of proportion?
Do you think people normally resort to mass murder in protest of, say, slightly decreased toilet paper thickness? If there's an issue that is so pressing that there's actually mass murder, then the State is an utter failure for not addressing said issue before it got to that point, and is almost certainly a fascist system.
This is just a strawman.
yes, let's hope the protestors are well adjusted and their measures are proportional. After all ideologies have never caused anyone to commit a tragedy.
People are driven by their material conditions far more than ideas. Mass protests happen for a reason, there are genuine grievances that are not being addressed. It is the responsibility of the state to properly address protests, and if they fail, they become riots.
No, violence is not good. Nobody is saying it is. However, people are correctly placing the responsibility of the origin of said violence on the oppressor, not the oppressed lashing out.
Please, open a history book.
That's quite the slippery slope fallacy. I replied to your comment of:
Which at no point mentions mass murder. "Oh, you support people protesting? What about BLOWING UP THE PLANET IN PROTEST?! Is THAT okay then?"
The fact that you equate property damage with mass murder really says a lot about you.
Whose life got saved by Antifa?
Considering Antifa isn't a group, the same number of people who have been saved by Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.
If you're asking whose life has been saved by protests and property damage then I direct you to the Civil Rights movement.
so, you condemn the boston tea party, right?
what's your favorite successful social movement from history that didn't use any vandalism to get a message across?
I do. Oh violence worked in the past ( and we all know how good the past was) sol let's do it now too, in the 21st century.
Fuck the liberation of second world war etc
That was a war, the violent resistance was against a hostile occupation, not a social issue.
Social issues are often hostile occupations.
Especially when it comes to fascists
We live under a hostile occupation by security forces employed by the wealthy class, there are deaths everyday due to the systems maintained by wealth and greed.
That is just delusional mental gymnastics if you think the US is fascist.
I didn't say the US was fascist, I'm saying our world is controlled by hoards of wealth and nearly all state actions are to protect that wealth and the people that hold it at the cost of the well-being of the proletariat.
Aka fascism
Cooperate wants you to find the difference:
One is an attempt to overthrow democracy and install a fascist theocratic dictatorship. The other is protesting directly against that. While you may not agree with their methods, which is frankly childish and placing the responsibility for our social climate in the laps of the oppressed, you cannot in good faith smile smugly and say "same".
Show us on the doll where Aunt Tifa touched you.