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Alabama condemned for nitrogen gas execution: ‘They intended to torture him’
(www.theguardian.com)
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this post was submitted on 26 Jan 2024
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I quoted you, and you spoke in an absolute which you can't know. Regardless if he was feeling pain or not, convulsing for several minutes is suspect.
I can read accounts from people who've observed the results of the methods, and in some cases from interviewing people who survived partial executions, and I spoke in the belief after reading those accounts that each individual method has strong indications that it's akin to torture. It might have sounded like my strong statement was just saying some bullshit but it's actually based on individually learning about each method, and concluding for each one that there's a strong indication that it's akin to torture.
You're free to feel differently, or to bring to the table some sort of reason why what I said was wrong, if you like.
In this case, I responded to a comment that said all other methods were akin to torture, as if this one is not.
This article specifically states that the guy convulsed for several minutes before dying, as well as pulling on the restraints. It's certainly possible he was completely unconscious during these convulsions and felt no pain. But it's also possible there was some severe suffering, we just don't know. The long convulsions are simply another data point that this might not be as humane as was thought.
I see no other information from any experts or other data saying the convulsions were simple reflexes and he was perfectly unconscious. We simply don't know, and I have to assume the possibility that there was pain.
Hypoxia without elevated CO2 in the blood is painless until the point of unconsciousness; that's been long-established based on countless different types of deadly and non-deadly situations people have found themselves in. It's actually part of what makes certain types of situations (e.g. low oxygen on an airplane) dangerous, is that it's hard to even know there's a problem until it's too late.
I can easily believe that the state fucked up the methodology of the execution so that the CO2 he was breathing out was recirculating into his gas mixture. If that happened, then yeah, they tortured him for no reason and that's fucked up. If that didn't happen, I'm pretty confident in saying that the execution was as painless as they could make it. Do you have a specific reason for thinking that might have happened?
I could be wrong, for sure; I'm open to counterarguments, but just throwing "well you can't know beyond a shadow of a doubt" shade at me in an attempt to say I'm not allowed to have an informed opinion on it is not a counterargument.
The most important data point here is the convulsions and pulling at the restraints. This points to the possibility of pain. I see no conclusive data saying he would be absolutely unconscious during this.
You admit to the possibility or even likelihood that they implemented the method wrong, resulting in a higher possibility of pain.
If it was implemented correctly you're "pretty confident" it was "as painless as they could make it". You're confidence and opinion is irrelevant here. You're certainly not an expert, and there's enough info to doubt how humane this is. If they ever implement it "correctly" maybe we'll get more data.
I feel like I'm just repeating myself. The counterarguments are all there.
Personally I'm strongly against the death penalty as I hope is obvious. Even if actual experts say it was done perfectly, and there was absolutely no pain. Well that's certainly better but the convulsions are still gruesome and as others have pointed out the suffering can be the lead up to the execution. Also if future inmates are going to be executed similarly and are made aware of the convulsions they could be afraid of the possibility of pain regardless of what they hear from experts or people like you and your confidence.
Does this apply equally to you?
Are we allowed to make statements to one another based on our understanding? Or not?
What opinions am I providing? I'm simply Rejecting yours based on the data in the article.
You said "convulsing for several minutes is suspect" and "This points to the possibility of pain." Those are both affirmative statements I'd disagree with.
I've looked over enough data at this point that I'm pretty firm in my conclusions; my top-level comments reflect my sources and thinking on it. You're free to think whatever you like.
In that case you are wrong, and probably incompetent.
Your sources say nothing about convulsing without pain. The convulsions are a data point that is enough to question if pain was involved. Full stop.
You're [sic] confidence and opinion is irrelevant here.
Edit: Honestly dude, even in jest I feel a little bad applying this statement even though you did to me first. I actually don’t think this - I was swayed enough by the “I was wrong” possibility to look into it for quite a while. If you were open to hearing why, I’d be happy to talk about it, but it sounds like you’re explicitly dismissive of the idea of listening to anything that challenges your existing views. So, good luck, all the best.
Ok.
Show me some evidence that the convulsions aren't a data point to actually question the efficacy of this example of execution being humane. It creates the question of whether there was pain or not. Additionally, the possibility that this example wasn't performed correctly adds more data to support my questioning of your assertion that it was painless.
I have not implied any objective statements as if I know what occurred definitively. I'm simply saying based on what happened and how it was carried out, I can reasonably question whether this was actually humane.
This might surprise you, but I’m not obligated to continue this conversation or convince you of anything. Like I say, I’ve laid out what I think and why in other comments.
You have absolutely layed out what you think. And I've proven very easily that you're wrong and have very poor critical thinking skills. See ya.