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[-] Octagon9561@lemmy.ml 16 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Americans have some serious Stockholm syndrome if they believe voting for any of these candidates makes a meaningful difference when they are both war mongering fascists. The status quo can not be changed by voting but by anti-government protests forcing the current system to collapse.

Besides Roe ended under Biden, not Trump. There have also been more deportations under Biden than under Trump so this vote Biden or else blackmail isn't even based on facts. It's like choosing between Himmler and Hitler.

[-] Nobsi@feddit.de 14 points 11 months ago

Both sides bad mhhhhhkay?
Get the fuck outta here, One side wants to uphold democracy and the other wants to bea adictatorship cult. And most bad things happening under biden are the result of 4 years of trump.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 11 months ago

Both sides are bad, yes. The fascists are far worse, of course, but it's naive to think the DNC are some brave Democracy Defenders, when their sole interest is to uphold the rights and protections of Capital. Most of the bad things happening under Biden are actually because of Capitalism reaching an ever-later stage, Trump certainly made it worse but Biden isn't making it better.

Should leftists vote for Biden to prevent Trump? 100%, abstaining from voting or voting third party is a spoiler vote in America and would result in fascists winning. Should liberals pretend that Leftists are the problem because leftists are understandably upset that they don't have anyone to actually vote for, while liberals and fascists get to gleefully vote for their preferred candidates? Absolutely not.

[-] Nobsi@feddit.de 4 points 11 months ago

Show me a functioning non capitalist society that is on the same or better level than the US, Germany, Finland, Spain, France.... etc. i'll wait.
Stop being delusional.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 11 months ago

What "level?" Development? Quality of Life? Wealth? Wealth drives development, and development drives quality of life. If I took Cuba, or even EZLN, and compared it with, say, Somalia, the non-Capitalist countries win on all 3 accounts. You can cherry pick if you want, but ultimately development is a process and takes time. Development is a stage, if Cuba became Capitalist today it wouldn't be as developed as the US overnight, that's silly.

Secondly, you're assuming I want to replicate a currently existing country. That's false. I want the US, Germany, Finland, Spain, and France, along with all other countries, to shift to collective ownership of the Means of Production. I don't want to randomly reset a country to 0 progress and build up straight to Socialism, that's absurd.

The very premise of your question is false, as you're relying on a snapshot in history and not actually analyzing the mechanics of collective ownership. It's an utter non-argument.

[-] Nobsi@feddit.de 4 points 11 months ago

LMAO youre a tankie. No wonder youre delusional.
Have fun in your dreams.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 11 months ago

How exactly am I a tankie? The EZLN is a Libertarian Socialist collective, I explicitly mentioned it to provide multiple examples that only share the fact that they are leftist in structure. I'm in favor of Democratic ownership and operation of the Means of Production by and for the Workers, rather than having a bunch of petite dictators a la Capitalism.

Is the fact that you're a landlord what drives you to be so immediately reactionary to anyone proposing we share ownership collectively?

[-] Nobsi@feddit.de 2 points 11 months ago

I want the US, Germany, Finland, Spain, and France, along with all other countries, to shift to collective ownership of the Means of Production

i cannot capitalize LMAO further but i would.
LEMAO
You are so far removed from reality i cant even

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 11 months ago

Do you have a point? I think worker co-operatives are pretty cool, Socialist structures. Workers are happier and the co-ops are more stable than regular Capitalist businesses.

What's wrong with that? Is democratically controlling production worse than Capitalist ownership of Production? What's wrong with wanting more democracy in developed and underdeveloped nations alike?

Genuinely. Throw me a bone, I think we can possibly come to an understanding.

[-] Nobsi@feddit.de 2 points 11 months ago

I won't waste my time discussing with someone who is this far removed from reality.
The fact that none of these systems ever worked is already proof.
Show me a commune that works.
If communism is so great then surely there must be loads of local communes that all work together? No?
There is no socialist communities that work? Mhhhh i wonder how that could be hmmmm how weird.

[-] Cataphract@lemmy.ml 4 points 11 months ago

You don't think there are any successful communes or co-ops?

[-] Nobsi@feddit.de 2 points 11 months ago

List them. Show me how many of them work.

[-] Cataphract@lemmy.ml 4 points 11 months ago

They're literally all around you. A credit union is a cooperative, the Associated Press (AP) is a cooperative, there are a number of electric companies that are cooperatives which I've been a part of. Land 'o Lakes for gods sake is a cooperative! Even Texas has housing and brewery cooperatives! I don't know why you're being so combative, If you took 10 seconds to look it up you would know. Either you've been grossly misinformed by someone or your perceived notions need educated.

List of cooperatives (not even close to being a complete list)

Energy Cooperatives

Food Cooperatives

Land O'Lakes

Land O'Lakes was founded on July 8, 1921, in Saint Paul, Minnesota, by representatives from 320 cooperative creameries as the Minnesota Cooperative Creameries Association.

This isn't a new, fanciful, or dreamy thing. It's a very real system that benefits everyone at the company including CEO's.

“Workers in employee-owned firms tend to be more cooperative and interested in the firm’s performance, and display a greater willingness to work hard, which generally leads to reduced employee turnover, improved productivity, better pay, and increased job security.”

While cooperatives are well-known in many European countries, Americans may not realize that this model of organizing also has deep roots here. Cooperatives undergirded the early stages of U.S. capitalism, with communities establishing electrical cooperatives, insurance mutuals, and dairy cooperatives as alternatives to government bureaucracies and conventional firms alike. America’s early unions founded hundreds of industrial cooperatives to protect workers’ rights and share the gains of industry more equitably.

source

If you want to have a real conversation about co-ops I'm here for it. If you're just going to respond with a snarky comment and nothing to back it up but anecdotal observations then I will not waste anymore time continuing further.

[-] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago

Great comment. Concise and well sourced.

[-] Nobsi@feddit.de 2 points 11 months ago

I was specifically asking for communes and you show me coops that still have capitalist gain in mind. Delusional

[-] Cataphract@lemmy.ml 3 points 11 months ago

You're either woefully uneducated with a bitter attitude or just a troll. Either way, your complete refusal to even perform a 10-second google search to confirm or refute your claims shows you're not willing to accept any new information outside of your completely-incorrect viewpoint. Have a good and lonely life so others can be spared from your ignorance.

For everyone else, successful and long-lasting communes do exist. There are a wide variety of "Alternative Lifestyle" or "Intentional Communities" out there. It basically boils down to, "what are your motivations and prospects for joining such a community?". From wiki "The multitude of intentional communities includes collective households, cohousing communities, coliving, ecovillages, monasteries, survivalist retreats, kibbutzim, hutterites, ashrams, and housing cooperatives."

With a 30-second search I located this page with over 946 communities signed up (many across the U.S.) that you can register with if you're interested. These types of communities have a wide-range of goals or how they operate, such as Living Energy Farm's technology driven mandate "We are an intentional community farm and sustainable technology research, development and education center. We serve as a viable demonstration that a fulfilling life is possible without the use of fossil fuel. Our mission is to serve as an example and actively promote lifestyles and technologies that are truly sustainable, and to make these sustainable technologies accessible to all persons regardless of their income or social position." All the way to the other side of the spectrum which the above commenter probably perceives all communes to be (Awake-In Heart Healing Center), "The driving force of our vision is to bring back unity, generosity, and community, as well as helping the next generations thrive using natural principle of wisdom." I personally prefer somewhere in the middle like the European Eco-village template. Just search "eco village community" on youtube and pick a video that looks interesting to you to start your journey.

If articles are more your style, he's an excerpt talking with a commune that's been around for over 40 years.

Would-be members used to contact Bergholt Hall, one of Britain’s longest standing farming communes, at the rate of 70 or so a year: 50-something empty nesters looking for companionship; 30-something couples in pursuit of an idyllic upbringing for their children; 20-somethings keen to erect a yurt on the hall’s rolling Suffolk pasture. Since the Covid lockdowns, however, Hodgson admits, it’s been “bonkers”. “We had 70 applications in April and May alone.”

It’s a pattern echoed across the UK, with communes reporting being inundated by new applicants of all ages, driven by the Extinction Rebellion movement and its focus on low-carbon living and, more recently, by the glimpse that lockdown has offered of simpler, less consumption-driven, lifestyles.

There are more than 400 such “intentional” communities across the UK. Many are cohousing set-ups, in which residents live in individual dwellings with a few common areas and domestic functions; others are based upon a lifestyle or worldview (spiritualism, gender non- binarism, veganism) and feature a variety of communal labour arrangements and facilities.

A surprising number are longstanding country communes, such as Bergholt Hall, founded in the heyday of the 1960s and 70s back-to-the-land and self-sufficiency movements. It was an era when an ideological generation of “diggers” (named after the 17th-century English communards) sought to challenge notions of the sanctity of the nuclear family and opt out of “the grab-game of straight society” (as hippy bible Oz magazine put it in a 1968 article on the first London digger commune).

source

If anyone wants to talk about cooperatives then feel free to contact me or reply to this message. It's an interesting topic and I believe a sustainable way to exist on this planet if instituted large scale. Want to work off the land and help the direct community? There's a place for you. Busy working and just wish to contribute financially while living in the community? There's a place for you. Want to start up a company that your passionate about? Imagine having a community with a plethora of talents to help you and that you can equitably share income with! You can form a cooperative business within a commune and bring in workers from outside the community to share in your prosperity.

The possibilities are endless, the outcome is fair and sustainable. With enough cohesion you can combine with other businesses to form a mega-cooperative like the Land O'Lakes example above. The only thing stopping you is individual greed, which we've seen how that's played out so far in our history.

[-] Nobsi@feddit.de 2 points 11 months ago

You linked to cults. Kinda cringe bro.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 11 months ago

Profit isn't Capitalist, lmao. You were laughing this entire time yet you didn't even know that? Yes, Capitalism is driven by profit, but Capitalism itself is not profit. Capitalism is individual ownership of the Means of Production, rather than collective. Co-ops are Socialist.

Read some theory.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago

They do, though. I literally pointed out worker co-operatives. Motion Twin, a game studio, is a quick example off the top of my head, though there are many others.

Your point seems to be that democracy is bad if applied to labor, and that there are mystical factors that turn things evil if Workers share ownership, without any actual analysis.

Again, what do you mean by "works?" There are existing Socialist states, all with various problems, just like there are existing Capitalist states, all with various problems. There are many types of Socialist states, from Cuba to the EZLN, to even China, depending on who you're asking, or Rojava.

Do you have an actual criticism against workers sharing ownership of the factory, rather than having one person own the factory? Whats wrong with that?

[-] Nobsi@feddit.de 2 points 11 months ago

I am not talking about anything evil or how democracy is bad.
I am talking about communists being delusional.
Yall keep talking and yall keep proving it over and over again.
You don't understand shit and just keep repeating stuff that didnt even work 70 years ago.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago

You are. You are directly saying democracy is bad when applied to labor, by saying Socialism and Communism are delusional, as all Socialism is is Worker Ownership of the Means of Production vs Individual ownership a la Capitalism.

You have additionally showcased how you genuinely don't understand what anyone is talking about, and rather than attempt to engage with them, you just laugh and call everyone else delusional while you use an explicitly Socialist platform made by a Communist as a direct response to the failures of Capitalist Reddit.

Bringing you through the same example again: which is better, the factory owned and run by the Workers, or thr factory owned by a Capitalist and run by the Workers?

I understand that as both a landlord and a laborer, you're petite bourgeoisie. As such, you are reactionary and thus stand against the progress of the Mode of Production from one of Capitalism to one of Socialism. However, your arguments can be directly copied and pasted to times of Feudalism. "If Capitalism is so great, why aren't there Capitalists and businesses owned by them everywhere?" while in the midst of France pre-revolution would be just as valid as your arguments now. That is to say, they are entirely devoid of analysis and are a way for you to not have to actually think about your views.

Seriously answer me this, if nothing else: are worker co-operatives delusional?

[-] Octagon9561@lemmy.ml 2 points 11 months ago

What democracy are you talking about? All I see is a war mongering oligarchy. The problem isn't with the president, it's with the US itself.

[-] Nobsi@feddit.de 2 points 11 months ago

I couldnt even dumb myself down enough to explain this to you. Grow a brain fascist

[-] Octagon9561@lemmy.ml 2 points 11 months ago

Socialists are fascists, got it. Is that you Ben Shiapiro?

[-] ToastedPlanet 1 points 11 months ago

Being politically apathetic while both siding democracy and fascism makes you a tanky. Letting fascists takeover our country isn't a political position, it's Russian propaganda.

Roe ended because of the three judges Trump appointed. Trump has promised to round up millions of immigrants into camps so they can be deported. Building an alternate reality for yourself to live in isn't productive or compelling.

[-] Octagon9561@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago

What are you even talking about? All recent US presidents have shown very clearly that they are all war mongering fascists that bomb third world countries, particularily the Middle East with no respect for human life. And if the US doesn’t do it itself, they let Israel do it for them. It doesn’t get any more racist than mass murdering brown people.

Furthermore, Biden has deported more people than Trump so far.

You’re proving my point that stockholm syndrome runs rampant in the US. People need to realize that it’s not the president that’s the issue, it’s the US as a whole. And I do think the US is more dangerous than any other country in the world, including Russia so call me a Russian puppet all you want.

But no, other side bad. They’re playing you all against each other and that allows the oligarchs to stay in power. How you don’t even realize that is absolutely mind blowing.

Tell me how a two party oligarchy is democratic in any way. I’m waiting. Oh that’s right you can’t, because it’s obviously anything but.

I focus my anger on the US government, not who’s the current puppet of it.

[-] ToastedPlanet 1 points 11 months ago

No, Trump is a fascist. Obama and Biden are not fascists, they are neoliberals. W Bush was a neoconservative.

Trump is planning on rounding up and deporting millions of immigrants. This is not comparable to what Biden has done.

Russia so call me a Russian puppet all you want. You're a tankie parroting Russian propaganda. This election is a clear choice between democracy and fascism.

But no, other side bad. They’re playing you all against each other and that allows the oligarchs to stay in power. How you don’t even realize that is absolutely mind blowing

The fact that you are parroting Russian propaganda for free is mind blowing.

We live in a democracy. No amount of Russian propaganda will change that. Electing Trump will end our democracy and begin a christofascist government where being angry at the US government will get you thrown in a death camp. Be angry at whoever you want. Vote for Biden because it's a vote for democracy.

[-] Octagon9561@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago

Brain rot like this is exactly why I don’t like commenting on political posts on world and Reddit.

Fascism and neo this and that aside, the US is an oligarchy. Every single US president was an oligarch. The US doesn’t have a multi party system. It is the leading imperialist power in the world.

Very democratic. 🤡

Claiming that this is somehow Russian propaganda is no different than a Zionist yelling antisemitism at any and all criticism of Israel. It’s beyond absurd and rediculous, yet people here are so indoctrinated that they don’t see it.

Everything wrong with the US is somehow exclusively the fault of the other side lmao. Nothing wrong with the political system in the US at all.

[-] ToastedPlanet 1 points 11 months ago

There are plenty of the problems with the US voting system. They are not relevant to the discussion about voter apathy in the next election.

A basic history class refutes your arguments position. We live in a liberal democracy. Presidents are elected. We have a two party voting system.

All your argument does is parrot Russian propaganda and engage in ad hominen attacks. It must be real hard to argue with anyone when your arguments lack substance and rely on alternate facts.

A fascist takeover by the Republicans will result in America becoming a christofascist dictatorship. It does not follow that Americans should allow fascists to create a worse political system because of the flaws in American democracy. We should instead address the flaws in our democracy directly. In order to do that, American democracy must survive this election. The only way to do that peacefully is to vote for Joe Biden.

[-] Octagon9561@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I literally studied history at university lmao. You don't know what you're talking about.

But sure let's discredit everyone as a Russian propagandist and Khamas supporter or whatever.

The US is a two party bourgeois dictatorship. There's no such thing as American "democracy".

Also as a Muslim, I will never ever support Joe Biden who's a mass murderer of my people and no other Muslim I know will either. I will not get blackmailed with "but Trump", they can both rot in hell.

[-] ToastedPlanet 1 points 11 months ago

I studied history at college too. You really think you can trick people into thinking America isn't a democracy?

If you don't want to be called out for parroting Russian propaganda then don't parrot Russian propaganda.

We have elections. People vote in them. A person denying reality when they clearly know better doesn't absolve them of their civic duty.

Trump will kill more people. This isn't black mail. He is has made his intentions public. The most effective way to stop Trump from killing more people is to vote for Biden.

[-] Octagon9561@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago

North Korea has elections too. It's a one party state though, which is only a one party difference from the US two party system. That is not what anyone outside the US calls a democracy.

Both will kill people. I won't support ANY mass murderer. If Trump wins, at least he's completely incompetent and there's a chance he'll destroy the United States, which imo would be a good thing.

How about you don't promote imperialist propaganda for a country that has terrorized the entire world for decades and has killed millions of people in its numerous wars.

[-] doggle@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 11 months ago

Roe was ended by Trump-appointed judges whom Biden had no influence over.

Blaming the president for the actions of the Supreme Court is asinine.

[-] Octagon9561@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago

You're proving my point that the issue lies with the system, not with the president.

[-] YeetPics@mander.xyz 2 points 11 months ago

Biden personally assassinated Franz Ferdinand and started WW1.

this post was submitted on 24 Jan 2024
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