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Canonical's Steam Snap is Causing Headaches for Valve
(www.omgubuntu.co.uk)
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this post was submitted on 18 Jan 2024
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I don't even want to hate on Snap, I just think Flatpak is probably superior in almost every way and it's probably not great that there are three competing formats for "applications with dependencies included". It was supposed to be "package your app to this format, dear developer, so everyone can use it no matter the distro they use", now it's a bit more complicated. Frustrating, as this means developers without that many resources will only offer some formats and whichever you (or your distro) prefers might not be available.
I know that you can get every format to work on every distro (AppImages are just single binaries you can execute), but each has their own first class citizen.
By the way, the unofficial Steam Flatpak has been working well for me under Fedora 39 KDE Spin, but an official one would be great to have.
Obligatory xkcd
obligatory reply to obligatory xkcd
Yeah but Snap isn't an improvement.
I know, I'm on the Flatpak side, just appreciate the intention behind snaps (although I quite frankly hate the execution).
Nice. I haven’t seen that one before!
Creating standards to trap users is not improving technology.
Snap isn’t a standard actually. It’s closed off.
Every line of snap code that touches your computer is open source, so "closed off" is absolute hyperbole when you are discussing the format
Canonical specifically went out of their way to create a closed ecosystem with snaps, and you think that's not "closed off" because they only allow you to download the open source parts of the snap software?
The server is proprietary.
Which is why I phrased my above comment in the very precise and deliberate way I did.
You don't need to interface with canonical's server to use snaps, you only need to do so if you want snaps that have been approved by and signed by canonical. Anyone can create a snap and privately distribute and install it, and every part of that process is open source.
Yeah, but nobody cares about your technical "gotcha."
APK isn't a closed source format just because Google operates the main store.
If there was community effort someone could spin up their own snap store, this person did it https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/lol-an-open-source-snap-server-implementation/27109 - problem is, it would serve no benefit because you would have to create your own signing authority and patch snapd to use those assertions instead - and then you are still relying on a central authority to vet and sign releases and frankly I would rather have my software signed by canonical than someone random guy operating their own snap store
Again: nobody cares because practically speaking, the only people using snaps are getting them from Ubuntu, and Ubuntu pushing snaps as the default is the only reason they aren't using flatpaks intead.
I care. It is interesting.
Interestingly though unless it has changed recently, you can’t add a third party snap repository. Canonical’s is hard coded, and when people requested alternate repo support, the issue was closed with a response that users seeking third party repos could just edit the string and recompile. Not the most useful solution
Hence I picked the word "format".
Mmm.
I didnt want to hate snap either, until I found out its proprietary technology… on a foss OS… since then I‘m pretty over it - and ubuntu for that matter. I‘ll probably switch to debian once ubuntu 23.10 runs out of support.
Personally, I don't get why devs would elect to package for Snap, in favor of Flatpak or AppImage. I guess, if your toolchain offers Snap packaging out of the box, then might as well. But aside from that, do you not just reach fewer users...?
Yes and no. Last time I checked, Ubuntu was the most used desktop Linux OS, and it obviously uses Snap (and has Flatpak disabled by default).
Ah, I hadn't realized Canonical was so awful as to disable the format everyone else agreed on, but seems you're right: https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2023/02/ubuntu-flavors-no-flatpak
They didn't "disable the format"
From your own link:
Well, yeah, you can enable it. But if it's not active in their GUI software store by default, then many users will not find / look for it. It's rather important for a package format that you don't have to separately install it.
Ubuntu itself never natively came with Flatpak though. Some flavours might have, but their marketshare is also a lot smaller.
Of course, if Ubuntu ever decided to ship with Flatpak natively, that would instantly become the obvious choice.
How do you figure? For example, Arch Linux community on r*ddit is bigger than the Ubuntu one
Where did you get the numbers?
Hard to find raw numbers backed by good sources.
If you filter the Steam Hardware Survey for December 2023 by Linux, you can see Arch has a market share of 7.85% (excluding SteamOS on the Deck, which is technically based on Arch and has 40.53%) while Ubuntu 22.04.3 LTS - a specific Ubuntu version - already has 7.04% on its own.
But that's also just Steam users. Ubuntu is one of the few Linux distributions that OEMs ship preinstalled and officially support on some of their devices (Dell for example). Another example is Fedora iirc, which Lenovo ships or at least used to ship as an option on some of their ThinkPad notebooks.
I'd assume the Arch community on Reddit is bigger than the Ubuntu community as it's geared towards tech-savvy people. Going by Reddit community size wouldn't make much sense though. Even if you add up the member count of the r/windows, r/windows10 and r/windows11 community (which doesn't make a lot of sense as most users are probably not unique), it's only like 3-4x the members of r/archlinux, which doesn't translate to market share whatsoever.
I don't really have hard numbers, sorry. Should've checked first. I guess I just assumed because of the OEM support and being relatively easy to install and maintain for the average guy (in comparison) that it was the leading Linux desktop distro in terms of marketshare. I'm still assuming this is the case for the reasons stated, but can't tell you with 100% certainty.
It's impossible to measure since sharing copyleft stuff can't be tracked like sales of proprietary software can. There's no need to apologize about not doing the impossible.
Well, most of windows users don't even know they are using it, they think they are using a "PC" as opposed to Mac
Any Linux desktop user is already very tech savvy, I doubt there are any Ubuntu users that don't know they are using Ubuntu so the windows commission is not apt
If you're on Ubuntu, you can just ask your question in the normal Linux community or in a search engine. You don't need to go to a special Ubuntu community.
That's at least, how it makes sense to me. In general, I've seen many niche distros have very active communities, because everyone just ruts together and helps each other out.
...which is to say, I don't think there are accurate marketshare statistics, because no telemetry, but my impression is also that Ubuntu is still popular out in the wild.
The thing with AppImages is: it requires FUSE2 which doesn't really get packaged/included by default anymore in a lot of places and the recommendation is "build on the most old and crusty distro you want to support" which just sounds like a nightmare in multiple ways :)
And with snaps the sandboxing only really works on Ubuntu and nowhere else last time I looked into it (then there is also the entire problem if you want to host your own repository/"storefront").
So really the only universal sandboxing method that effectivly makes sense is Flatpak.
Just tell the billion dollar company to allow people to download the games on their browser. The Client only exists as a means to DRM and analytics, there’s no actual reason for games not to become standalone.
That's pretty unfair. Before Valve's efforts, the first thing we PC gamers asked eachother about a new game was always "could you get it running?"
Three bad old days were quite bad, and they started getting better in lock step with Valve's improvements to Steam.
Correlation/causation and all that. But for a lot of us Valve earned a lot of goodwill simply by allowing "request a refund" on games that run poorly. (Edit: which was apparently forced on Valve by a government. Valve got lucky there!)
Their refund policy is due to getting slapped around in EU courts, not because valve is benevolent or anything. I do like steam a lot, but it is a near monopoly which acts as DRM to a degree. They did and would abuse that power unless regulated.
I believe their refund policy is actually from ACCC in Australia, rather than European rulings
You're correct, Australia played a big role in it, and the EU was passing regulation around 2015 on that issue as well. So they got slapped around in Australia and changed it up before getting slapped around in the EU.
Flatpak with Fedora 39 must have come a long way. Almost every tutorial with workarounds or discussion of broken features you can find online is now obsolete. It just works out of the box, especially under KDE. Mostly. That makes searching for actual issues extremely hard because I find myself chasing down paths of issues that have long been resolved.
Ok in snap/flatpak but i tink that's a bit unfair in appimage. First two are runtimes, second is a file format that does stuff with fuse. That's like saying there should only be one I/O scheduler.
Do native for system/environment stuff and simple projects, flatpak for frontend molochs with lots of dependencies, no?
I don't think AppImage is a bad technology, but with the comparatively minuscule marketshare Linux desktop has barely any developer/software company can invest the resources to test and maintain packages in all these formats. It's often not worth it for commercial software to offer packages in every possible format (yeah, yeah, open source is great, I know; still, commercial software is real and many people (need to) rely on it).
I've been using Fedora for a couple of weeks (one of my New Year's Resolutions is to completely ditch Windows, so my main computer is now on Fedora :D) and most of the software I use is either available in the official repositories, as an rpm or a Flatpak. But there's the odd piece of software where I can only find AppImage or Snap versions, and often if a Flatpak is available, it's non-official (Steam for example).
So, you potentially have packages from the package manager (mostly deb- or rpm-based, and whatever format Arch uses), then you have AppImage, Snap and Flatpak and some applications are simply an archive with an executable binary. That's a far cry from installing everything from one or two places, which I feel like used for be one of the selling points for Linux (years ago).
Nothing most users can't handle, but it could certainly be more streamlined. Now before I install software, I check the website, then I check whether they offer an official flatpak or an rpm package if it's not in the official Fedora repositories, and if they don't, I check if there's an unofficial one on Flathub, which sometimes has implications. If there's no Flatpak whatsoever, I fall back to standalone binaries/archives when available. It's probably easier to install software on Windows now: download the installer from the official website, install it and done. Most software auto-updates itself.
Having options is great and one of the great things about OSS, but I feel like when it comes to "standards" like these, more collaboration instead of reinventing the wheel over and over again would be better.
I thought that valve distributed statically compiled files
Welcome to Linux.