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this post was submitted on 31 Dec 2023
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I'm sure gun people will be pissed at me for this, but wanting to have a concealed gun on you doesn't really make much sense to me if guns are supposed to be a deterrent. You aren't deterring anyone with your gun if no one knows you have it. Shouldn't you want to wear it where everyone can see it so they know not to try anything funny?
I don't think guns are supposed to be a deterrent. Someone running to mug you isn't thinking clearly about the possible complications or repercussions.
A carried gun is a commitment to kill someone before you are killed in a life or death situation. Not too feel cool or show off, or brandish as a warning.
Plus if you dress like a cowboy, someone might try to mug you FOR that gun, making you a bigger target.
That's all pretty heavy, and the odds are low that you'd encounter that situation. So not a lot of people are willing to complicate their lives for it.
The deterrent is the uncertainty of who may and may not have a gun on them. A lot of self defense is making yourself a harder target, the knowledge that a firearm might come into play and the victim may be proficient at using it makes anyone and everyone a harder target. It doesn’t mean desperate criminals won’t still make a move, but it should decrease the number of crimes attempted.
Again, it is already uncertain who may and may not have a gun on them.
Is there any data to that effect or is that just wishful thinking?
There's not good data on anything related to guns and it's frustrating.
Intuitively it makes sense that if there might be a bear in the woods some people aren't going to go into the woods because they're afraid of getting mauled by a bear. It almost certainly has an effect, but quantifying it is going to be hard and subject to bias and the real effect will always be subject to other unrecorded factors (e.g. maybe when they tested one group the bears were hibernating).
I personally don't think many people who aren't into gun culture or traumatized by guns give much thought to whether or not someone is going to have a gun in XYZ place ... which probably translates to a lot of crimes of passion or desperation (e.g. I need drug money so I'm going to go rob this gas station).
Very well said and I am in agreement.
It's assumed that no one is armed in California because of all the unjust laws here. No thief is going to hesitate thinking "what if my target has a gun..."
That's sort of the crux of the issue here- this all seems to be based on assumptions rather than data. And even my merely asking for data has apparently been a step too far for some people judging by the downvotes.
I realize that guns in general are a hotbutton issue, but I really don't think asking for data on concealed carry being a deterrent to crime is unreasonable when questioning the legality of it...
Obvious troll is obvious
I'd say the crime rates in no carry zones vs like... Red bits of Texas would be an indicator. No idea what those are but the number of stories out of Texas like "robber shot by 3 different people during hold-up"... Yeh.
Those stories are curated by the media. That is not good data any more than all the crime reports the media makes is an indication of the crime rate which has been dropping for years.
I know you're getting blasted with replies. It's not supposed to be a deterrent. You carry concealed so that you can defend your life with deadly force without having to walk around pretending to be a badass all the time. Carrying a gun doesn't stop crime, it stops people when they make an attempt on your life.
How fragile and distrusting of other people does someone have to be to feel the urge to carry a gun around on their person at all times? Granted America can be a bit (lol) dystopian but to warrant a gun on your hip to go to Trader Joe's? That's some scared person behaviour. For a nation that wants to come across as being the confident cowboy there really is a scared child behind it all.
I think there are quite a few scared people carrying guns around in the US, and that's very unfortunate. In fact, if you're carrying because you're afraid, you should reevaluate your situation. It's just another tool you can carry around, one that you're very, very unlikely to need.
Tell all of this to cops.
The deterrent is supposed to be the possibility of armed people. The idea is supposed to be that allowing people to legally carry concealed weapons means that any potential victim might have a gun.
On the other hand, many gun owners who support concealed carry oppose open carry for several reasons.
First off, they don't want to make them or their gun a target. They don't want someone trying to steal their gun, and they don't want to flag themselves as the first target for any kind of attack.
But another huge reason is that they feel like the only reason to carry openly in public is to make a political statement and carry around an implied threat. Most people who carry concealed consider themselves pretty normal people and they aren't interested in making statements or threatening others. They just carry a gun.
I'll occasionally carry my target postil concealed just to keep the gun secure while transporting it. It's usually in a safe at the house, but when I'm going to the range or leaving town I'll take it with me, and it's less-likely to get stolen off my hip than it is by having my car window smashed. Keeping it hidden on my person is just another part of firearm safety.
Everyone I know that carries does so concealed. They don't care about deterrents or whatever, they're just taking a precaution they hope to never use. Like being mugged or attacked. Source: Texas.
Wouldn't you be less likely to be mugged or attacked if the potential mugger or attacker saw you had a gun? This is sort of what I'm saying...
IMO, a lot of people see the open carrying types to just be people cosplaying badasses. The type that has spent basically 0 time training to use it, outside maybe taking it to a range and firing off a hundred rounds. They see it as a gun to be stolen?
The only time I see open carry that seems to make sense in all of this is shop workers/cashier. I've been in stores that have a reputation based on what they sell to get hit by robbers, and the guy working is carrying outside his belt. Like a smoke shop or liquor store for example.
I'd like to see some actual data to support this. Much like I'd like to see some data that concealed carry actually has a negative effect on crime.
I don't know that we should be basing our gun laws around what makes people comfortable. On either side of the equation. They should be based on data that allowing or disallowing something regarding guns is safe for the general public and effective when it comes to crime and self-defense. Or at least that is what I think and I would be open to hearing an argument against that beyond an overly-broad interpretation of the Second Amendment where all gun regulations should be nullified.
This is another thing I have seen people claim here several times without data and, at the risk of offending some, I would again like to see some data which actually supports this claim.
You’re more likely to be targeted first in an attack if you have a visible weapon. Similar to how bank robbers will shoot the guards first if the guards have guns. If you have your weapon concealed you may be able to shoot the attacker before he is aware you have a weapon.
You have far more confidence in people than I do. Hoping to never use it (except perhaps in that drunk fight with my neighbour)? I wouldn’t trust anyone who carries guns on the extremely remote probability that it will help them in a shooting/robbery.
If you're drunk and carrying a gun you're doing it very wrong.
A gun person might say open carry can also make you a target.
Then guns are definitely not a deterrent.
There is no such thing as a deterrent that deters people who don't know about its existence, and if you're a target by openly carrying the thing you call a deterrent, that doesn't deter people either.
So maybe the argument that guns are a deterrent should be dropped by the people who want to carry their gun concealed about their person.
Well, I believe the idea is that if you are wanting to start something and you know people are definitely carrying, but you don’t know who or how many is the deterrent.
I am not here to convince you.
"I don't know if someone around me has a gun" doesn't seem to be much of a deterrent so far since that's the status quo regardless of the legality.
Let me start by saying I appreciate this hasn’t devolved and does seem to be a civil discussion.
The idea is most citizens are law abiding and if it is illegal to conceal carry or barred by the establishment to carry then only three types of people would be a threat to someone who intends to cause violence. First a law enforcement officer, second another person intended to break the law with a weapon and last would be an individual with the attitude’rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6’. The possibility of those types being in the vicinity is much lower than when everyone can be capable of self defense with a firearm.
There are many more nuances involved: does the person carrying have training? Can the person carrying be more of a danger than the danger their presence prevents? Is the criminal logical/smart enough to know and understand that there is a risk of an armed populace when they enact their crimes? And many more variables that can be put into play that aren’t part of this discussion.
Thanks for reading.
I can understand your points here, but I still don't understand, and maybe it's just me, how not knowing who around has a gun makes everyone safer than knowing that you have armed people around in case there's a problem.
Like someone else said, everyone they know conceals as a deterrent from mugging. I'm no mugger, but I know I'd be a lot less likely to mug someone I saw was carrying a gun.
I'd like to see some actual hard data that having legal concealed weapons actually makes people safer than having them out in the open.
Maybe I'm putting too much thought into this, but if I were a mass shooter, I would avoid shooting up the place where I saw someone with a gun in a holster.
I agree. Nukes only work as a deterrent (for example) because the countries that have them "open carry" them. A concealed-program nuke is only good for after the fact revenge on a country that attacks you or an ally/neighbor. Just like a gun.
Lol showing you're armed makes you a target. And someone will take it from your hip. There's videos of people grabbing the gun and just running, so no. You're absolutely wrong here. A lot of idiots are up voting you too, which is sad.
Finally a claim of some evidence.
Please show me one of these videos.
if someone sees your gun, they can take it with a surprise rock to the head attack.
also if a decent percentage concealed carry, then crazy people will maybe consider that before doing crazy things?
(i don't agree with that just playing devils advocate)