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Moderation + support on this instance
(lemmy.nz)
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this post was submitted on 10 Jun 2023
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I think some rules are needed e g. No hate speech, no threats of violence, no doxxing or hacking, no unsolicited sexual stuff, no illegal things, no animal cruelty or child abuse videos, no scams or spam, no advocacy of violence, harm, or self harm, no destroying the functioning of the community, Nazis can go fuck themselves, etc... The usual things so that there's clarity for mods and users
But also I think some general rules like don't be an asshole, or these rules are not exclusive mod discretion will be applied as needed to keep this place safe and enjoyable
So the thing is, the more rules you have, the easier it is for someone to be antagonistic and defend their actions with "but it's not against the rules". I highly recommend checking out the Beehaw post I linked, as well as reading their side bar links.
This blog post also also helps to explain things: https://eev.ee/blog/2016/07/22/on-a-technicality/
Almost all the things you mention are covered by the existing rule: "don't be a dick".
My personal opinion (at this very second, before it has become an issue) is that we should consider having hate speech, threats or advocacy of violence, and nazis stay visible, and having people call them out on it. If it's trolling, we can block them and remove them, but in the first instance it should be the start of a conversation.
Animal cruelty and child abuse - these I believe are obvious that they are not welcome and should be removed on sight, the user permanently banned, and the event reported to the appropriate authorities. We shouldn't need a rule to do what is obviously the right thing - but in either case we do have a rule that covers this (the only rule).
Harm or self harm - we can't hope to be a mental help forum, and this raises legal liability issues (something discussed by other instances). But I don't think we can have a one size fits all rule here, our approach to this should evolve over time.
"Destroying the functioning of the community" - this seems very subjective, but in any case I think this starts with a conversation, and if it's clear it's a troll then at that point we can take action.
I think I addressed each of your items but in any case I think you get the idea of what I'd like to attempt. That is, conversations instead of ban hammers. And encouraging users to call people out if they don't align with our values. But anyone engaging in good faith should be guided on what we expect here.
The obvious question is "how do we know what is allowed if there aren't specific rules": if you think it's on the edge, then please don't post it. If someone posts something that doesn't sit right with you, call them out on it. You are also welcome to report it, but I do encourage discussion as a starting point. Treat this like you would a real life community - for the most part when it comes to personal interactions, our laws are black and white: don't kill them, steal their stuff, etc. We don't need a law that says don't say nazi shit, because if you say nazi shit then either someone will call you out on it or people won't want to interact with you. I'd like this online community to work the same way, and will advocate for that goal as long as it feels achievable (I'm watching Beehaw closely).
The next obvious question is "if there's no defined rules, and @Dave is the only admin/moderator, how do we know he won't let the power go to his head"? I don't want this to be a dictatorship. I'd like to involve more people as mods and admins, and build a group where we can discuss cases and share differing opinions to decide on appropriate actions as a group. This won't happen overnight, but I do hope we will get there.
I was part of a hacker space and the one rule was: “Be excellent to each other”
It worked quite well having one rule.
Please keep the up/down votes. 😊
The “Bill and Ted Paradigm”. You’re forgetting the most important part though: “Party on dudes.”
I think this is ok, but it assumes everyone is commenting in good faith, and that everyone agrees on the definition of “being a dick” already. For a small community (ie under 10k subs) it will work fine but I don’t think it will scale beyond that. Maybe this current system will work for the medium term at least.
Here in NZ there is the HDCA, which lays out some basic rules in law about how people should conduct themselves online (though they aren’t strictly enforced). Might help provide a guide at least.
There are laws around breaching court suppression orders, and those are enforced a bit more strictly. Mods need to keep on top of this stuff to make sure you (the publisher) don’t get fined. I’m not sure how your obligations are affected by federation, but you definitely want to make sure court orders aren’t being breached by content accessible on your instance.
We are small, and it will be good to see to what level it scales. As I mentioned, I am watching Beehaw closely as they are trying this approach and are the second largest instance, likely to hit your 10k threshold in the next week (though they are actively denying new users from signing up).
The HDCA you link is pretty basic. I don't think anyone would argue we would want any of that, and I think it all falls under the existing rule. In fact, I think our rule covers far more than that list.
Breaching court suppression orders also falls under our rule. My understanding of reporting is that if you report a post from another instance from here, then both instance moderators get a report. We can block a post from another instance, then it won't show up here.
I think the general idea I'm getting at is that we as a community will decide over time what is or isn't acceptable, but some things are black and white. This is not intended to be an unmoderated wild west instance where we allow things not allowed on more mainstream social media, instead it should be an inviting place, and we don't get that from moderators behind the scenes deleting stuff that seems non-inviting based on their opinion.
Note that the moderator log is open to anyone, you can see this by clicking the "Modlog" link at the bottom of any page. However, this is federated, so shows moderator activities from communities on other instances that we federate with. I'd like to be very transparent about moderation and not to be ban-heavy but instead encourage the discussion you'd see in real-life communities.
Harm or self harm e.g. go kill yourself, or someone should put a bullet in them, or here's a guide to how to be anorexic without getting caught.
I agree with you on the problem of the rules lawyers who try to argue that what's not specifically forbidden must be allowed, but I also think that a set of defined unacceptable behaviour is not just for determining whom to smite but also for telling new people what kind of place they've found.
When I was admin of a place long ago there was a list of stuff that merited instaban and then the additional meta rule which was formatted as a warning "If you create problems here even if it's not specifically against the rules we will do something about you" which yes very subjective but also fair warning for people like the guy who came to sealion every political thread, and the rather unpleasant person who liked to reply to people's pet posts with stories about how she killed her hamster.
I think calling someone out on this is more effective than silently banning someone. It's more transparent, and shows that we aren't willing to put up with it. In the case of the last one, probably we would want to remove it and send a DM to them explaining why it's not acceptable. In this case, the harm in leaving it up outweighs the benefit of transparency.
I'm not sure that we've quite worked out what kind of place this is. But if you have a suggestion that could sum it up in a sentence I'm all ears. However, I don't think we need to say "no threatening, no doxxing, no telling people to go kill themselves" as I think by listing this you are telling people it's a place that needs these common sense rules because people often aren't able to use common sense so need it written down. I'm not sure that's the place we want or the impression we want to give.
Yeah fair enough.
I can't say what everyone else wants this place to be, but I'd like it to be a welcoming place where people associated with Wellington and Wellington region can socialise, make friends, get support or recommendations, and discuss things relevant to living in or visiting Wellington.
But also I'd like some definition, if not specific rules then at least a kind of map of how things will be addressed. In part because not everyone who infringes means to do so, but also because some people can't parse an oblique warning.
I'd like to see how we go. When an issue (or potential issue) arises, either start the discussion yourself, or report it with a description of your concern. If we find the approach isn't working, we can adjust then. But before then I'd like to build up a team of moderators happy to use the discussion approach, and then as a team we can decide if more rules are necessary.
I think probably you are going to want to do a thread specifically for mod applications? I'd be willing to zap obvious spam scams and illegal things like csam on a when and as encountered basis but I don't really have the time or the mental bandwidth to commit to full discussion based modding, especially where the discussions might be time sensitive. Also I think probably we're both active in the same time zone while you'll probably want at least one ideally two people who can prevent mods are sleeping scenarios.
Yes, I think we are new enough it's difficult to approach people so I will do a mod application thread. I'll pick some people willing to try a discussion-based approach, and willing to join a mod matrix room to discuss things. Plus some others for obvious spam/illegal content removal, especially for covering other time zones.