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this post was submitted on 20 Nov 2023
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Same with car drivers though, no?
That's fair
And any dumbass who tries to equate the two to justify mass firearm proliferation, just tell them to defend their homes with cars and knives just the same.
Then they'll raise their hands and go, "whoa whoa, hey now..."
I mean, a part of me would sooner say “yes, they are both needlessly dangerous and costly to society, which is why a society structured around needing and allowing either mass guns or cars is stupid.”
The US has more car deaths than anywhere else in the world, by far. Like guns, it’s a real “This is not preventable, says only country where this happens” vibe.
Some cars will always be necessary. The crazy delusional obsession with car dependence that happens literally nowhere else in the world is not necessary.
Very similar to a gun advocate. It’s what you’re used to and you’ve already made up your mind, actual arguments or evidence be damned.
Based on what? I’ve given actual arguments and you haven’t. What a bad faith response.
My claim is modest: there are easily preventable harms to both widespread use of guns and cars, evidenced by the fact that the US is a HUGE outlier in both.
Agreed.
If anyone wants to further argue, note the issue is that we've built a country where cars are necessary. (And yet not so necessary that someone's license can't be suspended!) However, there is no reason why this can't be changed. Saying it can't is limiting our future to also think cars are necessary. They aren't. They are useful in many places. But you could do without them if as a society we decided to do that. Dream bigger everyone! Have a world where you DON'T need to sit in traffic every day. Where you DON'T wait at red light after red light. Where you DON'T need to be a designated driver for your friends. Where you DON'T fear the day your vision gets so bad you lose your independence. Where you DON'T need to spend hundreds on insurance and car purchases and parking tickets and everything else. If we don't dream it, we can't ask for it. And if we don't ask for it, what we have now will be what we're stuck with.
(And if you want to have a car and have fun - sure! But then it'll be extra fun when it's not a requirement and fewer cars are on the road!)
Cars are not technically necessary. But we regulate them heavily - through licensing, safety tests, and policing. And your license can be pulled or suspended so that you cannot drive.
Why? Because they are deadly. Just because something isn't created to kill (say... To protect your family? To get you to your job?) doesn't mean it can't kill.
Sadly, we live in a country where freedom and rights are valued more than community and respect.
But as the welcome to nightvale NRA says: "Guns don't kill people. We're all invincible and it's a miracle." (Podcast.)
Do not approach the dog park.
... my phone is always dying so I think I'd like living in a desert otherworld where my phone mysteriously never dies
We have car insurance, but not gun insurance.
https://locktonaffinityoutdoor.com/personal-firearm-liability/
The critical difference is that auto insurance is (usually) required, while firearm insurance is not.
That's a no to this and the comment you're replying to
I'm not pro-gun, or pro-car, or anything that is a detriment to society. I vote progressively, donate to digital rights groups, and contribute money and code to open source projects. I believe in a better world.
Okay, with that out of the way, I'm looking for an argument I can use against a gun owner to tell them that they should not own a gun.
School shootings and dead kids is somehow not enough to convince them, because of the claim that its a minority of reckless users who are the problem. I am looking for other arguments I can use, and I will question arguments that seem weak or inconsistent to me.
Apologies if the car argument is often used by them, it came to me on the spur of the moment. Clearly it was a bad argument.
I don't think there is a universal argument against it that will work with everyone. Find out why they actually want a gun (not what they tell others on the surface) and check if there is a way they can get what they need without it.
If they have a gun because it makes them feel more "manly" then no argument will help, telling them they don't need a gun to be a man could. If they feel insecure and threatened, helping them to find other ways to feel secure and safe again will help. It could be group pressure, it could be anything.
If you can't make them give away the gun, maybe you can make them put it behind a lock, gun and ammunition separated at least. That would keep everyone more save. Sometimes it is all one can do, but it would have hindered this accident to happen.
That puts your original comment into perspective.
I don't think there is an argument that could convince someone who wears their gun like it's a religion. They see that as part of their identity, and you can't change that with simple logic.
I guess I live in the hope that we're all human beings capable of being reasoned with
Change almost never comes from the outside. You have to want to change. They have to put the pieces together themselves and many people just lack the required introspection.
These folks get a hit of dopamine from guns. That's hard to fight against with logical argument.
Everyone has their irrational topics where it's hard or impossible to be reasoned with. The issue is that it's really hard to spot that with yourself, because in one's mind it all sounds reasonable.
Many firm beliefs that everyone of us holds are not nearly as much backed by science than we actually believe.
My only gripe with what you said is that there are legitimately irresponsible drivers and irresponsible gun owners. I don't think there's anything you can say to most Americans who own a gun to get them to not. Guns are so tied to the American image, it's not a tool, or a hobby...it's a fetish, a symbol of belonging to the group.
The car argument isn't a bad one, but saying that everyone is responsible until they're not is a falsehood.
A better way to phrase it might be something along the lines of:
Even responsible drivers can make an error, and a single error, one split second of inattentiveness, can destroy the lives of so many people. Now consider how many people are irresponsible drivers.
This is a good one to use, my thanks.
No sweat 👍
You'll have to do it with work. No magic bullet on this one. I own zero firearms but I'm a staunch advocate for 2a and our right to self defense.
A lot of people don't have well thought out reasoning, but it's cultural. I'm not saying they don't think about it so much as they never thought to, because they don't see those problems in their communities. They've been around firearms their whole life. When you go to a farm on a shooting day the old timers find the noobs and gently correct them. Problems get sorted quickly from those group experiences.
So, you have to ask questions to sort out where they stand and to break down their ideas into something more concrete. You have to kinda neutrally get them to put thought into how they came to the ideas they have.
"No one is going to break into your suburban home, Steve. Quit being such a pussy."
Are cars designed to kill people? Or are they used to kill people in extraordinary circumstances?