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this post was submitted on 15 Nov 2023
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Sure, but who is the "oppressor" and who is the "oppressed" can flip on a dime based on context.
A lot of oppressed people eventually find themselves to be the oppressor.
If you take a hard stance joining any side, you are at some point siding with an oppressor.
I don't need to describe how horrific and oppressive Nazi Germany and the Holocaust was. But you take a hard stance siding with the Jewish people, you are siding with the oppressor in the Israel-Palestine conflict.
I don't need to describe how horrific the situation in Gaza is, but if you take a hard stance siding with Palestine and Hamas executes a bunch of festival goers, you're siding with the oppressor.
The only way to be anti-opression (and according to you, a real progressive), is to not take sides but take every situation as it is and support the best possible outcome for everyone.
Israel doesn't represent every Jew that ever lived around the world.
Yes I support the Warsaw uprising.
Yes I support the dismantlement of apartheid states.
These are not conflicting stances.
If the oppressed become an oppressor my stance can change on them. Not taking the side of the oppressed while they are being oppressed is cowardly and indirectly supports the status quo/the oppressor.
I must have missed history class where the Warsaw Uprising attacked a peace festival.
Being oppressed is not a license to become a monster yourself. I refuse to condone cold blooded revenge (both Hamas and IDF).
That the festival was for peace in Gaza is an onboarding lie spread by the IDF. The festival was simply in celebration of the Jewish holiday of Sukkot. The motto was "friends, love and infinite freedom", so just about a regular rave.
Sadly mandatory: This doesn't make it okay to slaughter and abduct the attendees.
Alright what about warcrimes committed by resistance fighters and the allied forced during ww2?
If you support those groups even though they have done bad shit then you're a hypocrite and you should try and understand why you consider them differently.
Hamas wants to get Palestinian's killed by Israel, that's their goal. They want their own people to die so Israel looks bad and maybe Hamas can get Saudi Arabia to attack.
That's worse than what the allies did.
At this point i support hamas uncritically because israel is an apartheid state and its stepdad, the USA, is the largest state sponsor of terror in the world.
So you support a terrorist organization attempting to eradicate all Jews, and getting their own people willingly killed in the process. Good to know.
i don't care about the opinion of genocidal freaks such as yourself who sanction ethnic cleansing campaigns. everything you say is wrong and irrelevant
You yourself support an attempted Genocide you moron.
Imagine being this cringe
I can see that since 7 October Israel shut off electricity and water to Gaza, bombed bakeries and hospitals, forced the northern half of Gaza to evacuate to the southern half while still accosting and shooting them. I know that when Israel released the names of the so-called victims from the day Hamas breached the Gazan perimeter that a huge number of them were IDF soldiers, not civilians. I know that over 10,000 Palestinian civilians are currently dead due to the indiscriminate bombing campaign that Israel has conducted with the approval of the USA. This is what's actually happening, not whatever imagined scenario you are conjuring.
As for Hamas, I know that its creation was partly due to support from Israel itself. I know that birthright tours are designed to conflate Judaism and Zionism and to encourage settlers to come steal ever more land from Palestinians. I know that Palestine is thoroughly occupied by Israel. The people of Gaza do not control their own border, or ports, or airspace, or anything else. Until Palestinians are uncaged and allowed some form of self-determination their efforts should be applauded as resistance against an apartheid state and the people who take up arms are freedom fighters.
Can you show me the part of the Hamas charter where they call for the eradication of all Jews? I’ve leafed through it a few times and I can’t find it.
So you support a terrorist state attempting to eradicate safe spaces for Jews outside of Israel by funding antisemitic groups in those countries, and getting Jews killed in the process. Good to know.
Hamas wants hostages to do a hostage swap for Palestinians that Israel is holding hostage in their prisons.
This is true of any organisation fighting a nation state.
The IRA did hostage swaps with the British government and this was one of the reasons there is peace in northern Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/18/prisoner-swaps-cornerstone-northern-ireland
Edit: looking at tavarins comment history it is most likely they are a Zionist mouthpiece. Hope they are getting paid and not doing unpaid labour ❤
Just anti terrorist.
And Hamas demanded a 4 day caesefire as part of the hostage swaps, and only offered a small number of hostages.
And I have Israeli friends who had to live under Hamas rocket fire.
So your issue is that Israel couldn't negotiate better or at all?
And I have Palestinian friends that have lost tens of family members.
What's there to negotiate, one side won't give up hostages without a ceasefire that will greatly strengthen them.
Then why do you seem to support Hamas? Hamas is a cancer to Palestine.
Get rid of Hamas and Nethenyu, then maybe the sides can actually go about negotiating peace.
But here on Lemmy so many of you just scream only Israel bad, Hamas are "good freedom fighters" despite Hamas literally stating they want Israel to kill Palestinians. It's fucking exhausting the shit you people spout.
So no ceasefire till every Palestinian is dead? IOF has a 99% civilian casualty ratio, to take out Hamas fully the civilian death toll would be massive.
A cancer is something that spreads and kills the host. Oh I've just described isaerl, funny that.
Resistance to oppression is always justified. You can critically support groups like Hamas because they are the only ones fighting the oppressor. If the UN was actually stopping Israel I wouldn't need to vocally support the next best thing.
Hamas has come out and said they use tactics that put civilians in the line of fire intentionally. So no, I cannot support the disgusting terrorist group Hamas.
And it's fucking appalling that you can.
My friend, the IOF policy to drop bombs and white phosphorus over densely populated areas (a war crime btw) puts civilians in the line of fire intentionally.
Never mind their policy to shoot any IOF soldiers and settlers who are being taken hostage.
And if Hamas would stop firing rockets from populated areas those areas wouldn't be bombed. 9,500 rockets fired at Israel since Oct. 7th, there's a reason Israel is attacking back.
How many dead? Oh yeah its almost like the billions poured into Israel by the US gives them an unfair advantage and allows them to be the oppressor.
Israel has bombed Gaza with the equivalent of two Hiroshima nukes. 9000 rockets is nothing.
The Hiroshima nuke killed over 100,000 people, Israel has killed 11,000. So nope, they have not bombed Gaza with the power of two Hiroshima nukes.
And because they have an advantage Hamas should be free to attempt to eradicate all the Jews?
You're just A-ok with attempted murder and genocide then are you?
Hiroshima and Nagasaki: 15kT
Gazz sinze the 7th: 25kT
So yes the power of two nukes.
https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/5908/Israel-hits-Gaza-Strip-with-the-equivalent-of-two-nuclear-bombs
Eradicate the state not the people. Stop projecting your genocidal tendencies onto others.
Yet nowhere near the effect of two nukes. It's almost as if comparing small arms fire to nukes is completely idiotic.
And Hamas' goal is to eradicate the Jewish people, yet you support them.
So no, your last sentence is not what you have been stating you support.
You're demanding to view this as "good team" / "bad team". Fix that first because it stops any hope for peace.
Did looking at Nazis as the bad guys stop peace?
But no I'm asking if you support critically or uncritically the allies in ww2.
If you support the allies even though they committed war crimes and you don't at least uncritically support an oppressed peoples struggle then you are at best a hypocrite and at worst a racist.
Whatever Palestine does to free themselves from oppression is justified. Israel has never been oppressed by Palestine.
If the Jews had had a group similar to Hamas during the Holocaust, any rational person would say that's a good thing, as it might have lessened the horrors the Nazis could put them through. So yes, if the victims of a genocide retaliate against the perpetrators of it, that is good. Learn critical thinking skills please.
Critical thinking - would a little Jewish strike group attacking German civilians make the Nazi party hold back and lessen the horrors, or would it have scared the Germans into further supporting the Nazi party and lead to an even more outright assault on Jewish people, making the horrors even worse?
It would have made it worse. Without a doubt, the Holocaust would have been even worse.
You need to be honest with yourself, is this about protecting human life, or do you just fetishize violence against people you hate?
Hate to break it to you but violence has been the solution in every successful civil rights movement.
All your rights we're violently fought for and defended at some point in history.
Saying killing Nazis would have made the holocaust worse has to be one of the dumbest things I've read. How could it be any worse!?