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this post was submitted on 15 Nov 2023
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If you aren't anti-oppression or anti-apartheid you aren't progressive
Yeah well, one can be anti-oppression and anti-apartheid as well as anti-terror, anti-killing-civilians, anti-bombing-hospitals, anti-using-civilians-as-shields, anti-hostage-taking and anti-warcrimes.
The israeli Government is not the only one with blood on their hands and while nothing can excuse what the IDF is doing, nothing can excuse what HAMAS is doing too.
Both sides fucking suck, the only difference I can see is that HAMAS is bad for Israelis and Palestinians moreso than the Israeli Government is also bad for Israelis.
You literally listed off everything Israel is doing. Good job.
Israel's killed over 11k civilians since Oct 7th.
Israel's bombed over 20 hospitals.
Israel refused to take their hostages back even when Hamas offered them in exchange for the Palestinians hostages Israel has. Then bombed the locations they know hostages were at.
Hamas is using hospitals as staging grounds to fire rockets at Israel, over 9,500 rockets so far since Oct 7th.
The hostage exchange was for a ceasefire that Hamas wanted so they could regroup and start attacking Israel from stronger positions. And they only offered 15 of the 200+ hostages. It was fucking bullshit, and Israel was right to reject it.
nothing really found in the hospitals yet - https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-11-16-2023-6c7daa3b8c3a6b8dddf186ce631dfaad
We know Hamas fighters have been using the hospitals to stage rocket attacks, and fire out of. Whether there is an actual base of operations hidden in them is beyond the point, Hamas uses civilian infrastructure to fire at Israel from. They have said as much, they fight from among civilians to get Israel to kill civilians so Israel looks bad to the world. It's how Hamas operates.
where is your citation?
edit: even if there is, that does not justify the shelling of hospitals by the IDF
Because of the geneva conventions about protections civilians.
There was an article on the active page of Lemmy yesterday with confirmation of Hamas fighting from a major hospital.
So it should be easy for you to link it. That is, if it does prove your point and exists in the first place. Because right now your source is "trust me bro".
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1699881898-idf-releases-footage-of-hamas-firing-rpg-from-gaza-city-hospital
https://www.aol.com/news/israel-clashes-hamas-major-hospital-162417982.html
yea exactly I'm sick of all this whataboutism about Hamas. Hamas is the sole response to the atrocities that the idf has started. they hold all the power in this situation, they have killed many many many more people then Hamas ever could. They have also committed and are committing insane like Nazi level war crimes and all we get is... okay but Hamas bad.
also lets not forget.. most Palestinians didn't even want Hamas. they havent had an actiall election in almost two decades. Because it's literally not safe enough because the idf keeps bombing them.
stop all the back and forth finger pointing, America could pull funding from isreal, instead of this E fleas posturing. If isreal wanted peace then we could hve peace but there will never be peace until the idf stops bombing refugee camps and hospitals lol.
so sick of all this whataboutism, obviously any killing is wrong but Hamas is just a glorified token a red herring being used to justify brutality on a Holocaust level scale. and we need to stop allowing it.
Not for lack of trying. If it weren't for the billions of dollars spent on the Iron Dome every year, and the Israeli intelligence apparatus allowing them to evacuate their cities before attacks, many more Israelis would be dead. Attempted murder by Hamas is still atrocious.
Hamas still had broad support as of 2020, so no most Palestinians do want Hamas.
Tell Hamas to stop using them as bases of operation and firing rockets at Israel from those locations then. Hamas wants dead Palestinian civilians, that's their goal in the war to make Israel look bad.
In past conflicts, the death toll provided by Hamas (if you call the Ministry of Health in Gaza that) was largely accurate and didn't differ much from independent counts conducted by the UN.
This article has an example on how it was in a conflict in 2014. There is another article that had more examples, but I cannot find it. It was from the Guardian I believe.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67347201
Israel is not allowing anyone to to conduct outside verification, and hasn't for literal years. They deny UN workers visas, disallow any humanitarian worker from entering or leaving Gaza ( https://www.hrw.org/report/2017/04/03/unwilling-or-unable/israeli-restrictions-access-and-gaza-human-rights-workers)
but Hamas is not fighting outside verification. The UN has also repeatedly verified hamas' death counts in previous instances.
That alone should tell you whose statistic you should be more trusting of, and it's not israels.
I feel hospitals (warcrime) were visible from satellites and independent sources covered it.
The only sources that the hospital was being used for military operations was the IDF who is known for lying. They even showed pictures of metal objects in the same room as an MRI. Literally something you would never do because an MRI will destroy anything metal.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-gaza-al-shifa-hospital-idf-palestine-b2448500.html
https://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1724782542304559215?s=20
https://mobile.mako.co.il/news-military/6361323ddea5a810/Article-b124ea2e7bfcb81027.htm
All they do is lie
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html
They said a calendar was a "terrorist list". A literal calendar.
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/need-comic-relief-watch-israels-pr-stunt-collapse
They even higher actors
https://dohanews.co/disinformation-experts-call-out-israeli-theatrics-for-using-actress-to-play-anti-hamas-nurse/
It is, you have the right to defend yourself if the opponent is attacking from inside. But no even if the enemy is doing a war crime by using non-combatants as protection you are not allowed to engage them in that situation. You are allowed to inspect a hospital or ambulance to make sure the enemy isn't using it to transport or hide munitions. You are not allowed to attack anything marked with protected signs, such as the Red Cross, red crescent, or red diamond. If you as a solder break these rules, even on a direct order you are still personally responsible and might be judged in national or international courts. In practice, it might be hard to get soldiers to stand trial for these crimes. But it has happened. All my education in this has been in Swedish from the Swedish armed forces so some translations might be wrong.
That's the only difference you see? Not the extreme disproportionality of the bloodshed? Not the comparisons between civilian casualties on each side?
Hamas is like the cave-dwelling dwarf people that America made up for the middle-east to justify killing over a hundred-thousand civilians. Seriously, are we to believe that Gaza has a bunch of Gringotts vaults underneath it?
Seriously, it is clear that the bombing is not about saving hostages nor destroying Hamas. Would it surprise anyone if they found out that Israel's far-right government is like the ex that attacks you and then punches themselves and screams like a Karen that you attacked them first.. and then when asked for evidence because their wounds look self-induced, they yell... you don't believe me you antisemitic Nazi!?!
Oh no! Not a German overcompensating for their countries role in the holocaust.
If you want to dismantle Hamas for the the operation on the 7th, by the same logic we should dismantle Israel 10x for all their operations since 2003 such as operation lead.
Do you have a source for this?
https://www.jordannews.jo/Section-20/Middle-East/Helicopter-footage-shows-IOF-targeting-of-civilians-at-music-festival-32190
Ah yes, the nuanced thinking of a 5 year old - everything is black and white and everyone who doesn't agree w me 100% is evil
Do you know what genocide is? It's pretty much the most black and white issue there could possibly be. People who disagree with me on this ARE evil. There is actually such a thing as truth.
Ironically the same mindset held by hamas and israel.
I mean if you think apartheid south Africa, Jim crow laws and indiscriminate killing of second class citizens by the police or army are issues deserving of nuanced debate you need to take a look at yourself.
Sure, but who is the "oppressor" and who is the "oppressed" can flip on a dime based on context.
A lot of oppressed people eventually find themselves to be the oppressor.
If you take a hard stance joining any side, you are at some point siding with an oppressor.
I don't need to describe how horrific and oppressive Nazi Germany and the Holocaust was. But you take a hard stance siding with the Jewish people, you are siding with the oppressor in the Israel-Palestine conflict.
I don't need to describe how horrific the situation in Gaza is, but if you take a hard stance siding with Palestine and Hamas executes a bunch of festival goers, you're siding with the oppressor.
The only way to be anti-opression (and according to you, a real progressive), is to not take sides but take every situation as it is and support the best possible outcome for everyone.
Israel doesn't represent every Jew that ever lived around the world.
Yes I support the Warsaw uprising.
Yes I support the dismantlement of apartheid states.
These are not conflicting stances.
If the oppressed become an oppressor my stance can change on them. Not taking the side of the oppressed while they are being oppressed is cowardly and indirectly supports the status quo/the oppressor.
I must have missed history class where the Warsaw Uprising attacked a peace festival.
Being oppressed is not a license to become a monster yourself. I refuse to condone cold blooded revenge (both Hamas and IDF).
That the festival was for peace in Gaza is an onboarding lie spread by the IDF. The festival was simply in celebration of the Jewish holiday of Sukkot. The motto was "friends, love and infinite freedom", so just about a regular rave.
Sadly mandatory: This doesn't make it okay to slaughter and abduct the attendees.
Alright what about warcrimes committed by resistance fighters and the allied forced during ww2?
If you support those groups even though they have done bad shit then you're a hypocrite and you should try and understand why you consider them differently.
Hamas wants to get Palestinian's killed by Israel, that's their goal. They want their own people to die so Israel looks bad and maybe Hamas can get Saudi Arabia to attack.
That's worse than what the allies did.
At this point i support hamas uncritically because israel is an apartheid state and its stepdad, the USA, is the largest state sponsor of terror in the world.
Hamas wants hostages to do a hostage swap for Palestinians that Israel is holding hostage in their prisons.
This is true of any organisation fighting a nation state.
The IRA did hostage swaps with the British government and this was one of the reasons there is peace in northern Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/18/prisoner-swaps-cornerstone-northern-ireland
Edit: looking at tavarins comment history it is most likely they are a Zionist mouthpiece. Hope they are getting paid and not doing unpaid labour ❤
Just anti terrorist.
And Hamas demanded a 4 day caesefire as part of the hostage swaps, and only offered a small number of hostages.
And I have Israeli friends who had to live under Hamas rocket fire.
So your issue is that Israel couldn't negotiate better or at all?
And I have Palestinian friends that have lost tens of family members.
What's there to negotiate, one side won't give up hostages without a ceasefire that will greatly strengthen them.
Then why do you seem to support Hamas? Hamas is a cancer to Palestine.
Get rid of Hamas and Nethenyu, then maybe the sides can actually go about negotiating peace.
But here on Lemmy so many of you just scream only Israel bad, Hamas are "good freedom fighters" despite Hamas literally stating they want Israel to kill Palestinians. It's fucking exhausting the shit you people spout.
Whatever Palestine does to free themselves from oppression is justified. Israel has never been oppressed by Palestine.
It's the kind of progressive that only counts things that affect you personally