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Fry cooks
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this post was submitted on 08 Nov 2023
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Antiwork
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A community for those who want to end work, are curious about ending work, want to get the most out of a work-free life, want more information on anti-work ideas and want personal help with their own jobs/work-related struggles.
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Start here! These are probably the most talked-about essays on the topic.
- The Abolition of Work by Bob Black (1985) | listen
- On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber (2013) | listen
- In Praise of Idleness by Bertrand Russell (1932) | listen
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Some skills do take more time to learn. And sometimes, the job is safety relevant, meaning that it could cause harm to property and/or life if done poorly. If I was told that the guy who flips burgers at McDonalds had 1 month of training, I'd not be concerned. But if I was told that the surgeon about to operate on me had one month of training, I'd be freaking out.
Has anyone ever told you that you might receive an operation by a surgeon who had trained for only one month?
Is the hypothetical threat captured in your scenario relevant, credible, or realistic in relation to the particular distinctions from the context?
They were just demonstrating that the labor of the surgeon does actually require more skill. Because it does, objectively.
In this case it was a straw man argument.
The conversation was about how all labor is skilled labor, then you brought up an entirely audacious hyperbole about a specific career field and argued against your own example. Yes, surgeons need more training than a burger flipper, and yes, they deserve apt compensation for that disparity in time and expertise, but that does not mean that the burger flipper is "unskilled" or that the surgeon would be any more capable of flipping burgers because of their training to be a surgeon. Your "demonstration" was irrelevant to the topic at hand and constituted a bad faith argument. That is what you were being called out on, not the content of the argument itself.
Let's take a look at the original thesis from @unfreeradical, shall we:
I consider 'skill' to be measurable by the amount of time needed to acquire it. You can take somebody fresh out of high school, and turn him into a competent fry cook in a month, but not into a competent surgeon. Hence the surgeon requires both more skill, as well as different skills. Therefore the surgeon/fry-cook example is a counterexample to the thesis, and thus disproves the thesis.
I never said that burger flippers are unskilled, or that they need no training, just that 1 month is enough to learn how to do it. So, basically you're misrepresenting my argument to claim I've used a straw man argument.
No. They said that labor did not require more or less skill. They did not say that all labor is skilled labor. You, ironically, are fighting the straw man.
It was a strawman, or if you prefer, a bogeyman.
It's not a strawman just because you miss the point so entirely.
Your point is that if you needed surgery, then you would want it performed other than by a cook with a dirty spatula.
Your point is meaningless.
No one suggested that someone performing surgery would not be properly trained.
That wasn't my point because i didn't say that. I was explaining that the person who did was only describing how having more or less skill is true using that scenario.
Skill is not a quantity.
You identified as a quantity duration of time invested training.
You conflated an item with one of its attributes.
You can have a quantity of skill.
Skill is not a requirement for justice, nor is it something that should be denied from workers.
Skill is not a quantity, nor is it quantifiable, and your further objection embodies a straw man attack.
Apprentice, tradesman, journeyman, master.
Does an apprentice in a trade have more skill or less in his trade than a master in another trade?
Again, skills differ qualitatively.
At best one may conceive as a quantity a particular kind of skill, but not skill generally.
Ok, you concede skill can be quantified and compared. People can also have more skills than others. And, yes, generally.
No. You are dishonest.
And you are a poo poo head, g'day.
Some skills surely are less common within some population, and some may require more training above the skill sets generally shared within a society.
No one is suggesting receiving surgery from an uncredentialed surgeon.
Are such observations broadly relevant or valuable, though, within the context?
You said that different labor does not take more or less skill. Perhaps you were trying to make a different point that you are now trying to tease out socraticly.
Do you think making false statements is a valuable approach? Do you think a job requiring less skill is a bad thing or that it should be respected any less than one that does?
I observed that different kinds of labor require skills that differ qualitatively, yet by the inherent attributes of labor emerges no particular ranking among the kinds.
What statements have I made that are inaccurate?
It is inaccurate to say that labor does not require more or less skill. That is what you said.
You are conflating a duration of time invested acquiring a particular skill, which is quantitative, and therefore may be ranked, if desired, with a skill itself.
No one is conflating anything. You are arguing with yourself. Rank it however you want. People can have more or less skill, and that's OK.
It doesn't mean that one person deserves more rights than another. THAT is the point.
How are you ranking one skill against another?
What is your criteria or method?
There is an elder swordsman who has dedicated their life to refining their blade. A life of training, failure, modesty, and improvement.
How can you distinguish their work from a novice? And how do you dismiss their skill so readily?
More importantly, should the novice not be treated just as well, in any case? Because skill is not the deciding factor in justice.
Yes. Skill can be measured by the time needed to attain it. Since the skills needed by a surgeon take years to acquire, the surgeon requires more skill than the fry cook. This is a counterexample to your thesis. And by being a counterexample to your thesis, it is relevant and/or valuable. Unless of course, your thesis were to be considered irrelevant and worthless.
You are conflating a duration of time invested acquiring a particular skill, which is quantitative, and therefore may be ranked, if desired, with a skill itself.
What is your thesis?
Skills differ qualitatively, but not by expressing any natural ranking as greater or lesser one against another.
Well, I do agree that the surgeon isn't necessarily a better person because he has spend more time studying, but the greater time investment in training a surgeon is something that needs to be taken into consideration. How do you think should it be considered?
Now you are shifting the goalposts. I am not asserting that no one would take note of how someone may acquire one skill compared to another.
Again, skills are different, not greater or lesser.
That's what's called an axiom, because it's a statement that can't really be argued. To disprove it, a valuation of skills would need to be imposed, and any valuation could just as easily be rejected, or turn out to be useless. And I do agree with your axiom.
So, my question is, what conclusions do you derive from the axiom?
Any valuation that is imposed is simply one imposed, not natural, and neither is any value derived from it essential as an attribute of that which is being appraised.
Okay, what other conclusions do you derive from the axiom?
There is no axiom, only a negation of an assertion.
So, what conclusions do you draw from the negation of the assertion?
An assertion was given. I simply negated it.
Anyone is free to draw any conclusion, or none.
Oh well, have a good day.
With the term 'training' I mean all job relevant education. As in, a surgeon whose entire medical education happened within 1 month, not a surgeon who graduated med school and then was trained for 1 month as a surgeon.
Yes, it illustrates that for some tasks, training is more essential than for other tasks. Also, why are you asking that?
You know medical training is on the job hands on and every doctor is expected statistically to kill someone, not simply not save someone but actively lead to their death in one way or another.
🐈 They do spend years in med school before they are allowed to kill a patient, though.
Sure, but the actual effective training starts day one of residency.
It certainly does not end before such a time.
Maybe.
And yet, they are not only more skilled than someone who is not a doctor, but also more so than their younger self. It's almost as if one can garner more skill through experience.
The issue relates to whether various kinds of skill express a natural ranking .
Has any suggestion genuinely produced, as a credible concern, the scenario you described, or was it rather constructed as a bogeyman that would obstruct even criticism that is substantive and germane?
Unqualified workers in safety relevant professions causing damages or even loss of life has happened.
How was it suggested?