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crazy idea, let's just feed people
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 05 Nov 2023
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Aren't you forgetting the whole supply and demand thing...
No. That's why the caption says "... capitalism must manufacture [scarcity] in order to justify its existence"
If there are enough resources for everyone, then it is difficult to make a profit. So capitalism creates artificial barriers and waste to artificially create scarcity and demand in order to maximise profits. Its most obvious with products that are deliberately designed to wear-out, or break, or degrade over time.
Making long-lasting durable, repairable, and upgradable products is not beyond us - but is harder to make a profit that way. So instead we get stuff that degrades over time.
With food it is more subtle, but what is crystal clear is maximizing profits is the top priority for the invisible hand of capitalism. Keeping everyone well fed may be a desirable side effort, but is not what capitalism is trying to achieve. And that's why we end up throwing away huge amount of vegetables that aren't quite the right shape for supermarkets, but at the same time as having people starving.
Yes, and when the cost of a product becomes too high for it's true value, alternatives are created, which is why you're probably on lemmy right now. Right now, made to break profits are marketed to be cheaper, and while they are not, people believe it which is why they are still in high demand. There is an abundance of supply with many options, this is very different from low supply.
Capitalism is not inherently the problem. It's the corruption of governments that allow artificial scarcity to exist.
Now we discover your true understanding of "basic economics", the magical thinking that the man on the television screen and the man behind the lectern told you was the final truth and the deepest wisdom, and that you believed because believing is what you wanted to do.
Capitalism made the iPhone. I'm smart.
Capitalism made Lemmy. I'm really smart.
I'm not saying or thinking any of that. I'm not talking here because i have the ultimate answer, im collecting different perspectives.
You are not meaningfully collecting different perspectives, though, if you are dismissing others as not falling inside of your own construct of "basic economics".
I assume you are aware that economies have occurred historically not based on supply and demand.
Yes, they tend to fall under some sort of authoritarian system and usually still have free trade outside of the system. When supply and demand is discarded by government, people tend to die. So it seems to me that we can central power since the free market, while not ideal, is still better than the likely risk of corrupt power with all of the power.
People are dying because the entire economy, the entirety of processes of production and distribution, is under massively centralized control, and driven by the profit motive, which is inimical to human survival and flourishing, in a word, corrupt.
I have been browsing comments for the post quite aggressively, and have even read most of them now several times. I have found none advocating for supply and demand being "discarded by government", nor any for expansion of authority.
waves hand
I am actually advocating for supply and demand being "discarded by government" :)
Sorry, I realized after clicking "reply" that you're already someone I'm having a (slightly heated, sorry!) discussion with. I promise I'm not following you.
But nonetheless, even Adam Smith (the founder of capitalism) had some problems with unrelated markets wrt necessities. We don't have to go off the deep end to say "supply and demand economics should be discarded for food and healthcare if it's the only way to stop poor people from dying inches away from trashbins full of food"
The phrasing is intrinsically nebulous and rhetorically charged, useful more as a tactic for constructing a straw man than for advocating meaningful social change.
Really? I'll be less nebulous. I think the government should step in and provide food to all Americans, setting a purchase price based upon actual cost to produce.
I think you might be confusing me. Because it sounds like you're saying I should lie and pretend I don't want to undermine supply and demand because it would be easy for a dishonest interlocutor to make me look scary. I don't like my side lying about our positions.
You are not the one who chose the phrase. You expressed affinity for it, and I explained my concerns.
Huh? What are you actually talking about?
I simply pointed out that there are a lot of us on the left who are "advocating for supply and demand being “discarded by government”". You came up with the phrase, and it is a clear reference to capitalism.
I am for the government intervening to break "supply and demand" in some cases. I hope you're not saying "supply and demand" is a nebulous term. It's a clear term with a clear meaning.
The phrasing is not a serious explanation of a desirable political course.
It is just dishonest rhetoric, being given to collapse the gamut of transformative possibility into a bogeyman of consolidated state power.
I feel that unfairly disrespects socialism, the same way people try to backpedal "defund the police" until it only means "give the police more money".
The whole point of the left is that we're not in love with unregulated capitalism. Price regulation is an "entry level" view for being Left of center.
I have to ask. Is English not a first language to you? Are you possibly running your replies through a translator? Very often your responses to me come across as nonsense, not in a logical sense, but as if language is failing us trying to communicate with each other.
Again, I was objecting to a particular course of rhetoric, of protecting capital by insinuating a false dichotomy against the consolidation of state power.
I really think we're failing to communicate far more than disagreeing on anything, and I don't know how to fix that. I'm sorry.
I mean no disrespect, but you sound a bit like I did in college, trying to hard to use big words that the message itself is completely unclear. Not saying that's the case, just that I can't follow your underlying intent.
Of course our communication is poor.
You are mining quotations out of context, leveraging them for your own agenda, and pretending there is no problem any deeper than some inadequacy in my use of language, though it is supported only by your absurd conjectures.
Right, that's why diamonds are so expensive! No, wait, that shit is actually worthless and only exploded in value because a few rich fuckers CREATED the PERCEPTION of scarcity.
Supply and demand is a fucking fairy tale told by rightwing scum to manipulate public discourse. It requires a world of absolute and perfect knowledge to function, which, unsurprisingly, doesn't apply.
Supply and demand is basic economics and applies to any form of trading. You can make a point about artificial scarcity but diamonds aint it because the demand is also artificial.
Yes, basic economics which I learned in-depth during higher education years ago and promptly realised was bullshit.
Why is supply and demand bullshit?
Basically because its deeply oversimplified to the point of being nonsense. As it stands, some assholes in suits set the price. There are constant bouts of shrinkflation, some stores raise prices based on brand prestige, convenience, friction, or because a neighborhood is wealthy. Economics classes create a distorted view of how the world works. And that narrative they taught us is designed to help us accept neoliberalism. And disregard alternatives.
It makes a set of assumptions which don't apply to the real world, chief among which is perfect knowledge of all agents in a market, which not only doesn't apply but cannot apply.
Scarcity is a relation between supply and demand, not a low supply accompanied by a low demand.
Yes, I misspoke. The point stands.
The point as you stated it is not accurate.
If you have a point you consider valid, then please offer an accurate phasing.