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this post was submitted on 31 Oct 2023
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This is genocide, you dolt.
Define genocide then detail with trustworthy sources why this meets it.
I'm tired of people pontificating that this is genocide who cannot even define what genocide is. The other side are those that can define genocide but fully trust Hamas sources while distrusting Western sources.
... You dolt
From the UN:
The popular understanding of what constitutes genocide tends to be broader than the content of the norm under international law. Article II of the Genocide Convention contains a narrow definition of the crime of genocide, which includes two main elements:
A mental element: the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such"; and
A physical element, which includes the following five acts, enumerated exhaustively:
Killing members of the group
https://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinian-shot-dead-by-settler-while-harvesting-olives-in-west-bank-report/
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/26/world/middleeast/gaza-death-toll-israel.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-67262375
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1143017
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/west-bank-palestinian-villages-israeli-army-settlers
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/17/crisis-gaza-why-food-water-power-running-out
~~Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group~~
~~Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group~~
There's a few from Al Jazeera but to prevent collective screeching i left it out.
Wow you can’t just bring up some made up noname nonsense like the UN, they’re antisemitic terrorists!
I only trust real sources like Israeli newspapers.
It stand for Unknown News-source. How can Hamas do this
There UN source simply defines them at war, not genocide. Name a war that did not produce suffering. The UN source does not show that they are intentionally targeting a people, just that they are suffering as they target the elected Hamas government.
Elected how many years ago? What was the average age in Gaza, again?
If we want to talk about elected governments, the genocidal Israeli government has much more legitimacy in claiming it represents it's constituents.
Literally no one is questioning Israel's legitimacy in government except Hamas. Nobody here in this thread is anyway.
You still missed the point though as they are not doing collective punishment. Collateral damage is not collective punishment.
The point was you keep mentioning Hamas as an elected government even though that is laughable at this point, whereas the people of Israel seem to be pretty on board with genocide.
As for collective punishment, I think the entire population of Gaza has been suffering collective punishment for years, but certainly the moment Israel cut off food, power, and water they were engaging in collective punishment. Like really obviously, you'd have to be either really dumb or really dishonest to say otherwise.
He’s Israeli, it’s in his material interests to pretend his country isn’t doing exactly what they publicly admit they’re doing.
I agree that Hamas should not be the government of Palestine and that the people would have difficulty removing them even if they wanted them gone. Who do you suggest should do it? I still do not understand what the legitimacy of the Israeli government has to do with the legitimacy of the Palestinian one.
Israel is at war right now. Certainly, the literal laws have changed to that of armed conflict. Making claims against it that do not cite international laws that they are signatory to are irrelevant. I don't think understanding the legal status of the conflict is me being dumb or dishonest. It certainly shows that I may not be talking on the same level of education or experience. That's the funny thing about the internet. You never really know exactly who or what you are talking to.
Hamas became the leadership in Gaza because Isreal funded religious extremism that became Hamas to oppose the PLO, part of which was the secular democratic socialist Fatah party led by Yassar Arafat.
Isreal is responsible for the violence and more violence will not end this conflict unless genocide is the goal.
So, that's why relations immediately soured between them when the election was over? There is no possibility at all that what you are saying was the intended result or effect of Israel even if true.
This narrative is also completely fabricated to decrease Palistinian autonomy. Yasser Arafat's death is largely considered to be what caused the instability. Your narrative only works to continue the narrative that the Palistinians should not have a sovereign state more than any distrust of Israel.
Based on those definitions, what Israel went through is considered genocide against them and multiple times including the recent attacks as they absolutely targeted Israeli civilians.
This is an overly broad definition and includes literally every war ever. Air strikes against seemingly military targets that end up not being military targets does not constitute genocide. Not by a long shot.
Your UN article simply states that there is suffering. Name a single war where that wasn't the case. Is all war genocide? Your other articles simply define that they are at war in response to a massive terrorist attack. That is not genocide by this definition as it does not define the difference between a justified defensive war and a genocide.
Israel was at war the second they were attacked. War is not pretty. It is not genocide. You would be far better off scoping your argument outside of the confines of the current conflict as they were attacked by an elected organization by Palestine.
Yes.
Yes, that's literally what the Geneva Conventions is about.
One casualty, no. Twenty casualty, no, but that might be a war crime. Eight thousands casualty and rising, including hostages, that is a large group. It include targeting refugee camp, place of worship that house refugees, hospital, evacuation route, that is genocide.
Terrible argument because that's not how genocide is defined, 0 point for the mental gymnastic. Genocide is a motive, not all war is genocide. But yes, a lot of war tend to consist the element of genocide because of one stronger group trying to eliminate a weaker group, including Israel - Palestine conflict, where Israel has been oppressing Palestine for decades.
Apply the context of the article to the definition of genocide.
Genocide did not define whether it's defensive nor offensive, nor the Geneva Conventions give a shit about how you think it should be. As it stand, being the defensive party does not give them any right to commit the atrocity they're currently doing.
Using your line of thinking, Hamas is not genocidal group because war is not pretty.
And in return, they murdered 8000 non-combatant of the people that they successfully dehumanised, just like all the conflict they have with Palestine for decades.
Holocaust Denial Trope also detailed on what people do to deny the holocaust, but lets swap some letter:
Wouldn't be too far off from what is happening today.
The key difference to your last paragraph and the current situation is the trustworthiness of the narrative. Hamas has been shown time and time again to show complete disregard to the truth when they make claims of war crimes and civilians killed by Israel. I am sorry that you have any trust in them at all but you should validate your sources. Every militant struck is claimed to be a civilian. Every single one.
Are you saying of the 8700 death, all of them are combatant? Or are you saying it's okay to kill 100 non-combatant to get to that 1 combatant? How many combatant were kill? Do you have any source to claim otherwise? Or is it all out from your own ass?
It's funny when a genocide denial trying to argue about genocide denial trope, they fit right into it.
I'm saying that you literally cannot trust the things they say and it's been proven more often than not. It's extremely well documented.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/24/hamas-israel-death-toll-health-ministry-trustworthy-reuters/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/time.com/3035937/gaza-israel-hamas-palestinian-casualties/%3famp=true
"Over a year later, after the news media had moved on, Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hammad enumerated Hamas fatalities at 600 to 700, a figure close to the Israeli estimate of 709 and about three times higher than the figure of 236 combatants provided by PCHR in 2009 and cited in the Goldstone Report."
It is immensely consistent over time and they do it because it works.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033
Fact still remain about half of that casualty is civilian in that conflict. 700 civilian. Fact still remain that the disregard of Israel toward the civilian is always consistent in their assault.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/camera-committee-for-accuracy-in-middle-east-reporting-and-analysis/
Sure, a media that mark all Palestinian as terrorist, we should listen to that.
But here you're just moving the goal post.
isnt that's hamas's goal though? they want to drive Israeli into the sea and create a new arab caliphate. not going to get there without massive genocide.
In time of fighting demon, one should take note not to turn into demon themselves because by then we will have two demon.
I guess they didnt pay attention in class
Genocide: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
See the ~~blown up hospital~~, the blown up camp, the thousands of dead Palestinian civilians, the refugees bombed while trying to use the designated route out, or maybe just the leaked report with details of Israel's plan to ethically cleanse Palestinians in Gaza.
Or, idk, just open your fucking eyes. You have to either be a fucking moron or intentionally ignorant, to both be aware of what's happening over there and still think it's not genocide.
Keep your head in the sand if you want. Fucking moron.
Edit: I'll concede on the hospital. Anyone care to refute my other points, or maybe touch on today's (11/1) bombing of the refugee camp?
The one Palestinian forced blew up? That's still standing?
See everyone else's comments on how inaccurate your statements are. We are not the ones with our heads in the sand. Stop trusting Palestinian government sources. It's literally Hamas. There's a reason that they beat the Israelis to the narrative. They do not validate their information. They say whatever makes Israel look bad, no matter what the truth is.