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this post was submitted on 29 Oct 2023
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Yet some people still claim Israel is the victim! When the truth is that Israel is a terrorist state.
The ol' "you shot me in the foot so I burnt down your neighborhood and killed your entire extended family" defense. Unbeatable in the court of law.
I agree, except I think Israel is the one to both start and end this.
I burnt down your house and killed your family, but because you shot me in the foot, I'll burn down your neighborhood and kill your entire extended family.
Don't forget how they'll cry to all their friends and relatives that they were the victims all along.
That one doesn't hold up as well in court though...
there's a history of violence on both sides since the post-ww2 era. no one really has time or any real inclination to attend court
Ah the ol' "history of violence and I've got more killing to do, so ain't no time for court" defense. An interesting strategy. Suppose it depends on the judge.
it's got more to do with the accused/accuser - neither are going to visit a courtroom (ie: the hague).
come on man, you're not even following the format of the joke here.
my apologies
no need to apologize. Sorry if that came off dickish. I was trying to entice you into joining the black humor.
People see will see these numbers and still argue "they are showing restraint, if Israel was really evil they would just carpet bomb them all." Like what the fuck is this then?
"The Nazis are killing Jews? Why would they put them on train cars then and have them work? Wouldn't they just shoot them or bomb them right there? I don't think it's really as big a deal as it seems." -American in 1940
Ministries of Health in Gaza is Operated by Hamas, so it would not be outlandish to say these numbers are being inflated in order to push public opinion and international support
EDIT: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/24/hamas-israel-death-toll-health-ministry-trustworthy-reuters/
“Hamas has now been in charge of Gaza for 16 years. It has squeezed the life out of honesty and probity. Any health official stepping out of line and not giving the death tolls that Hamas wants reported to journalists risks serious consequences. I’m not denying there are civilians being killed. At all, including many children. That’s verifiable. What is not verifiable are the numbers that emerge throughout the day from Gaza of new death tolls — 700 killed in the last 24 hours, 500 killed in the Ahli hospital car park blast, 5,000 killed since October 8. Hamas has a clear propaganda incentive to inflate civilian casualties as much as possible. There was a time when the figures from the ministry could be relied upon. The doctors and administrators knew what they were doing.”
This is an area of credibility that is still up in the air with reliable sources claiming that it is both reliable and unreliable numbers that are being published. However none of it though dismisses the fact that innocents are dying from Israel’s War with Hamas, innocents that contain children
Historically they stand up to even Israels secondary verification. From the AP:
Historically is not the same as current: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/24/hamas-israel-death-toll-health-ministry-trustworthy-reuters/
"Hamas has now been in charge of Gaza for 16 years. It has squeezed the life out of honesty and probity. Any health official stepping out of line and not giving the death tolls that Hamas wants reported to journalists risks serious consequences. I'm not denying there are civilians being killed. At all, including many children. That's verifiable. What is not verifiable are the numbers that emerge throughout the day from Gaza of new death tolls — 700 killed in the last 24 hours, 500 killed in the Ahli hospital car park blast, 5,000 killed since October 8. Hamas has a clear propaganda incentive to inflate civilian casualties as much as possible. There was a time when the figures from the ministry could be relied upon. The doctors and administrators knew what they were doing."
Of course they are also the victim. Hamas slaughtered adults and children with no remorse. Now Israel is returning the favor.
Both sides are aggressors and victims.
If someone shoots your dog and then you go to their house and shoot their dog. Are you justified? Perhaps. But you are still shooting a dog. And that makes you a dog killer.
2 wrongs do not make a right. Never will.
yeah they aren't shootin up the dog, they are slaughtering their entire family and burning their home, the proportions are a bit off here
Isn't that what the commenter above you just said.
How many Americans were killed by Nazi Germany vs the other way around?
Intentions and moral frameworks matter, not only the sheer numbers of casualties.
Hey, don't you bring Billy Talent into this
I actually like Billy Talent too 😄🙃
It's a bit more complicated than that no?
No, it’s not complicated at all actually.
If you find it not complicated then you are either uneducated and not impartial
I hope for the former and that you will educate yourself (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict)
Apartheid is not complicated. Sorry if that’s hard for you to understand.
Article 34 of the 1949 Geneva Convention IV states that the taking of hostages is prohibited
I'm sorry that you are so clouded by hate
Israel is an apartheid state. Apartheid is the root cause of the entire conflict. It’s also illegal under international law. This isn’t hard.
I agree. But Israel's apartheid actions are not just cause to enact rocket strikes, torture, suicide attacks, mass taking of hostages, mass attacks on innocents, or the beheading of children
It is hard, because there is no one side that has so far not committed a war crime
You seem to be confused. Explaining to you the root cause of the conflict is not the same thing as justifying ongoing violence. The simple truth is that this conflict will only end when Israel decides to end the apartheid.
What do you mean with "ending the apartheid". Which concrete actions do you believe are apartheid in the area?
The intention and systematic oppression and discrimination of Palestinians amounts to the internationally recognized crime of apartheid.
Palestinians have no say in what happens to them. Israel restricts their freedom of movement in Gaza and the West Bank. Israel intentionally limits their access to clean drinking water, food, and other resources. Palestinians were forced from their homes en masse in 1948. To this day Palestinians continue to be kicked out of their homes and segregated from encroaching Israeli settlements. The Israeli state enforces this system of oppression through criminal and illegal violence. I could go on but you get the point.
This isn’t just my opinion. It’s the international consensus and the opinion of Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and experts at the UN.
It's becoming quite simple...
Well they are the victims of a terror attack by the Hamas and have a right to defend themselves also not by any means of course...this conflict has two participants who are equally involved in this conflict, your point of view seems quite one sided to me.
No one is launching the nukes, because, well…first that's not how nuclear deterrence works, like, at all. And second, most of the people with nukes are in favor of and support Israel. You are so off base in your comprehension of global geopolitics.
It's not interesting actually, it seems to be what is happening now and it's sickening.
no victims, right. https://lemmy.world/post/7539955
Obviously there are individual victims, but as a nation Israel is mostly responsible as those who have all the power.
Having power = the ones responsible?
They have no power in Gaza. They haven't had any for the last 15 years. The ones in control of Gaza and its population id Hamas, and the ones who doesn't take care of poor Palestinians is Hamas. And the ones who get foreign aid and uses it for rockets instead of infrastructure is Hamas.
Power != Responsibility. Life isn't spiderman.
They are using way superior power only to oppress, that's why they have more responsibility.
Israel has all the power over Gaza. They control who or what goes in and out. The way Palestinians have been treated I'm not surprised at all that they have ended up with extremist leaders.
They control everything in and out huh... Does that include the rockets and anti-tank ammunition Hamas has?
Give me a break. They had a free hand running their own region for over a decade, and that's what came out of it. Lots of military means - zero safe zones for civilians.