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this post was submitted on 29 Oct 2023
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I'm glad this is being said. There are problems all around and fervor seems to be creating large envelopes of "allowed activity" for those who are willing.
This is a complex situation, but some things are clear. This is one.
Yea most Israelis agree it's fucked too.
Cops are bastards and let it happen, local troops help.
One silver lining is the Israeli Left is having a resurgence and there might be a government trying to roll it back and clean up it's act after this.
Isrealis have repeatedly voted for governments that openly state they want settlement construction to kill any viable Palestinian state (Netanyahu and his far-right pals).
If the whole of Gaza can be held responsible for voting for Hamas in 2006 (and not once after since Hamas did away with elections), the whole of Isreal can be held accountable.
I don't think either population is morally responsible for what their so-called leaders do. Subsets of them, sure, but Israelis or Palestinians as a whole? Not a chance. People are not responsible for actions they had no hand in, or which they actively opposed.
I totally agree.
I'm just following the logic of those who claim the carpet bombing of Gaza is acceptable because the Palestinians once voted for Hamas.
A. It's not carpet bombing. Less than one casualty per bomb dropped even if you round up.
B. https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-nazi-case-for-hamas/
Any before and after photos of entire demolished Gaza neighbourhoods makes it clear what a farce your claim is.
May you never experience a true carpet bombing.
The death toll would be in the 100k+
In Dresden in the B link 60k died in one night.
Didn't work for his defense then doesn't now. It's the basis of the laws of war and Geneva Conventions.
As it turns out a place the size of jersey city with 500km of tunnels is entrenched
It's not a claim it's a fact that Gaza isn't being carpet bombed. Overlay the maps of damage from satellite imagery with where tunnels were known to be previously in public knowledge.
So one of the most common forms of social media deception is posting screen shots but not the links themselves.
I'm curious about your screen shots, can you send the links?
Sure.
https://x.com/GLNoronha/status/1718988399057551639?s=20
https://x.com/IsraelinUSA/status/1718021899056210213?s=20
E: here's also a UN submitted report on the fact Hamas uses child soldiers and indoctrinated them. https://www.un.org/unispal/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/AHRC46NGO42_050321.pdf
https://youtu.be/dtErUuBvcRc?si=f7DeVBj8ahJMiybY and here's a video published by a preschool where they teach the kids to do some fucked up things.
Also here's another interview with the former heir of one of Hamas' co-founders and leaders in the West Bank. I have others in my comment history from this guy who is actually pretty famous.
(I don't like the interviewer but he mostly shuts up and let's the Palestinian who was in and out of Israeli prisons for years since he was 10 talk. Yousef touches on a lot of the same points across the different interviews he's done but this one has a bit more nuance.)
https://youtu.be/B8YYmrgAeqw?si=r-ZNTEdfUrLjc9yE
Thanks for the links.
Happy to help anyone who wants to know more about the regional context.
There's just so fucking much of it too.
Really funny how people down vote you because they believe in collective punishment as long as it's the side they don't like.
Which is the status quo for the region.
Still doesn't change the Geneva Conventions definition of a military target.
Meanwhile over in Pakistan there's massive protests for Palestine nominally.
As they are genociding 1.4 million Afghan refugees. https://www.rferl.org/a/pakistan-afghanistan-deportations-migrant-crackdown/32658618.html the stated reason is that the refugee population keeps suicide bombing stuff amongst other militant actions. Sound familiar?
Yeah except the person you're responding to probably doesn't hold all of Gaza responsible for what Hamas has done since being voted into power.
Also, the Israeli left actually now has their own egotistically altruistic motive to shut down the settler shit, that being that shutting off the valve of right of return and no longer counting the votes of settlers in the west bank gives them an electoral edge.
And after the shit Bibi's pulled, you could bet good money that the courts would look the other way on them doing it too since the judges will for a long time see right wing governments as a threat to their judicial autonomy.
The United States regularly votes for warmongers and theocrats, it doesn't mean there aren't a lot of Americans who think they're wrong.
And even this one is complex. A lot of the support for the settlers comes from American evangelical Christians. They believe that Jesus will come back under two conditions.
The first is that Jews run Israel. That's a check. The second is that Israel suffers a major attack. Well, that won't happen so that evangelicals send money to the settlers. Not only does it align with their "Israel should have the biblical borders" beliefs, but it adds fuel to the fire - worsening the conflict and making it more likely for a huge "Jesus will return this time" attack to happen.
They also support right wing Israeli politicians for the same reason. They don't want a guy running Israel who says "let's get a lasting peace with the Palestinians." They want a guy that says "I'll burn every Palestinian house to the ground and then burn the Palestinians themselves!"
This isn't meant to excuse actions by anyone else. It just shows that three situations are complex with a lot of people all over the place working against peace.