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Gaza hospitals ceasing to function as water and fuel run out
(www.theguardian.com)
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this post was submitted on 24 Oct 2023
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Why will none of the Arab countries provide shelter for refugees and help them? They are vocal about how horrible the situation is and have the ability to assist by taking in refugees, but do nothing except make sure it goes on and gets worse.
Yeah, why don't the Palestinians give up and just accept being ethnically cleansed? I mean, they're Arabs why don't they just move in with the other Arabs, they're all one big homogeneous group, right?
Civilians taking refuge away from a war zone is not being ethnically cleansed. FFS. Regardless of whether you think children should be stuck in a warzone,for whatever sick reason, I'd like to see the civilians evacuated.
And if they are not let back in who will hold Israel accountable? Many of the people being bombed refuse to leave their homes for this very reason (as well as the south getting targeted by bombs/no shelter/no supplies either way so might as well keep whatever semblance of dignity they have left). They don't trust Israel to allow them to return home due to historical precedent.
Those who don't want to leave can stay, others shouldn't be forced to become meat shields in a war they didn't want.
Having all your civilians become collateral between the terrorists war crimianls they elected and the war criminal IDF isn't going to hold Israel accountable.
That's the point. Get the civilians out of there.
Tell that to the people that refuse to leave their house due to what I previously described. The last election in Gaza was in 2006. The average resident of Gaza was about 1 year old at the time. This conflict did not start yesterday. The Gazan population does not trust the international community to protect their right to return and they sure don't trust the Israelis.
Right now, civilians don't have a choice to leave the warzone. That's intentional thaks to Hamas, Netanyahu, Egypt, Jordan, etc.
IDC if someone wants to die for dirt. But at least let people who want to save their children, their families, and themselves to exit to safety.
I'm NOT saying force people who want to stay in a warzone over land to leave. I am saying FFS let the ones who want to leave get out. Which they currently can't do.
You can't carpet bomb civilians then blame a country for not accepting 2 million refugees. Leveling the sector with air strikes is not a requirement.
Those countries have refused to take in the refugees for decades. They intentionally wanted them there and suffering. The refusal to take them isn't new, and it isn't all of a sudden because of the bombing.
It's really simple, my guy. Just let people who want to leave the warzone do just that. Debate and argue the grey area later after the civilians are safe.
If you disagree, you're literally saying that civilians should have to stay and die in a warzone, for what I can only guess is some political agenda of yours?
Once again, the continuous bombing is a military choice by Israel. It's because they don't want to fight on the ground and value Palestinian civilian lives infinitely less than they value the lives of their own soldiers.
If that's what you got from what I said then you're deliberately being obtuse. Even if you evacuate 1.5 million civilians to Egypt what do you do with the 500k that stay? Are they alright to kill because they chose to remain in their homes?
I've left my home country due to the deteriorating situation from events indirectly caused by this conflict so I guess that's my "agenda". I am against the collective displacement AND collective punishment of Palestinians and the further destabilization of the region as a sick form of "revenge".
You're trying to argue other issues. They distract from a clear, easy question. I suspect I know why you're trying to avoid the question.
Either you think civilians who want to leave a warzone should be able to, or you don't.
You can try and muddy this very simple question with "what about those who stay", or whether bombing the people who just targeted and murdered over a thousand civilians is legitimate or not, or whether their collective punishment is a war crime, even. I personally believe that it is absolutely a warcrime for Israel to inflict collective punishment... it doesn't matter with respect to the one simple question: should civilians who want to leave be able to.
Debating all that is a mess and already happening in lots of threads and forums everywhere. And should be in another thread.
All I've claimed is that civilians should be able to leave a warzone. Anyone arguing against that absolutely has an agenda and one that they're happy watching babies and civilians die for. Fuck them.
Yes, civilians who want to leave should be able to. Does that change the reality of the situation? Does that make Egyptians willing to take in 2 million refugees because Israel is breaking international law? Does that save the lives of those who stay? Does that eradicate Hamas? Does that resolve the conflict equitably?
Spare me with your "agenda" accusations.
Bombing over 2000 children (so far) is not morally ambiguous. It's never justified. There are other means. If you don't believe that is the case then I urge you to reassess how you value the lives on each side of this conflict.
I am glad you agree they should be able to seek asylum if they want to. That's all I've said the entire time.
The rest is just a distraction from earlier disagreement on that point. It's good you've changed your mind.
Start a thread for any of the other stuff, and we can discuss it.
Right now, civilians don't have a choice to leave the warzone. That's intentional thaks to ~~Hamas~~, Netanyahu, ~~Egypt, Jordan, etc.~~
Ftfy
Because they shouldn’t have to leave their homes.
I get that. Hell they shouldn't have Hamas using them as shields either just bc they elected Hamas. I get it.
But "shouldn't have to" and reality are clashing. And if the option is refugee or civilian deaths then I'd rather they lived.
It would be mathematically impossible for them to have elected Hamas since 50% of them are 18 and younger, and the last election was held over 17 years ago.
And the reason the last election was held so long ago was that after Hamas won elections in Gaza, the west supported a coup that failed and entrenched Hamas in power.
I'd debate that with you, but it distracts from the point. Civilians need a path to refuge and not be forced to stay in rhe Hamas/Israeli warzone.
If they want to stay, go for it. But lots of people who don't want to see their families die, have no way out by design and to the delight of both Hamas and Netanyahu.
You do realize this is advocating for genocide - the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group.
Saving their lives is not advocating for genocide. Giving civilians no exit a warzone is. How is that unclear to you? I can't tell if you're just trolling at this point.
It’s 2.2 million people. It’s a logistical nightmare. Any country/countries that take them in will have a drain on their resources. They will need aid. Or, just spitballing here, Israel could just stop.
And that should happen with them until Israel listens to reason and stops? Because if they stay in Gaza more will die.
It's 2.2m or 2.3m people. Remember Syria? That was 5 millions leaving the country so cut the crap about it being impossible.
I didn’t say it was impossible, it’s impractical. The easier solution is for the world to pressure Israel to stop the bombing.
The West, particularly the US where I am, has way more power to stop Israel than it has to force Egypt to accept refugees. They don't need to "listen to reason" they need to be told to stop or we'll stop propping up your entire economy and defense apparatus.
If it was any other country your argument would be substantive. But we are talking about Israel and Palestine. Anyone who leaves will not be able to return. That's how it's always been. And for the Palestinians, their land is their existence. They will not give it up. They know the second they leave, it's been lost.
And I said fine let those who want to stay do just that. But people who want to leave have a right to be able to do so.
My only argument is that people who want to leave should be able to. These nutjob radicals in here are literally downvoting opening a corridor for refugees who DO want to leave to be free of a warzone.
It's insane how fucked that is, that anyone would even argue against giving them the option. And it makes their motives highly dubious and likely their arguments disingenuous and politically motivated.
Funny thing - Israel did exactly what you're suggesting. They told Gazans to flee to Egypt via the Rafah Crossing, then Israel bombed the Rafah Crossing.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-said-to-bomb-rafah-crossing-to-egypt-after-telling-gazans-to-flee-through-it/
Civilians taking refuge away from a warzone is how the Jewish Diaspora began.
So you are arguing that people who want to leave a warzone shouldn't be allowed to?
Just oof, that's a terrible take. Please clarify if that's not the case.
At least I'm not arguing in favor of the warzone.
Somewhat ironically, the biggest impediment is Hamas mission to genocide the Jews.
@rivermonster most of them are not vocal about it right now. Many of them have normalised relations with Israel in the last few years.
They also hold the belief that allowing Israel to chase all the Palestinians out of Palestine and grab the land would be the end of the Two State Solution, turning the latter into permanent refugees.
In practical terms given Israel's blockades the only country in a position to take them is Egypt.
Egypt already hosts 9 million refugees, taking another 2 million would be politically unpopular with voters.
Egypt is also afraid of ending up in a border war with Israel (which would happen if any of the new refugees attacked Israel).
Egypt also wants the Two State Solution
Here is an article that might interest you: Why Egypt Won't Open The Border To Its Palestinian Neighbours
Other nations absolutely could petition to take them in and should. They could, at the very least, petioon Israel to allow them to provide refuge, but they dont bc they like things the way they are. I understand why, including it being politically advantageous for all of them and unstable governments, and nobody wants the terrorists hiding among the civilians.
That's rather rhe point, Israel can't commit its war crimes without the assistance of Egypt, and honestly the all the other Arab nations who clutch their pearls. It's so upsetting to see so many horrible and disingenuous actors in this from the Bibi/Hamas alliance (and theynare bed fellows) to Egypt and the rest of the nations who could help but instead clutch at their pearls and feign outrage.
@rivermonster I always wonder whether people who want "Arab nations" to take in more refugees are also petitioning their own representatives to take in more themselves.
Pretty much all the biggest refugee-hosting nations are poorer nations.
Nevertheless, this article might give you food for thought: The Growing Significance Of Malaysia and Indonesia's Non-recognition of Israel.
Oh, I'm with you. Fuck my own country for not taking them in. I'm in the US. Our southern border is one endless crime against humanity. I literally petition my rep and both senators regularly about violations to our consititon and international law that occur here. It is a source of shame for anyone of conscience who lives here.
@rivermonster yeah that's getting really bad lately.
I'm in New Zealand and I want more refugees from everywhere, including Palestine. It's frustrating.
Turns out Children of Men is the most prophetic sci fi.
I feel you, I argue for both immigration and asylum to be opened and increased in the US. I regularly am so depressed and dismayed that we aren't even honoring international agreements and law around asylum for those fleeing innumerable horrors.
I'm very ashamed of my country on this issue.
The people who will leave Gaza are never gonna be let back in. The neighboring Arabic countries already have lots of Palestinian refugees.
I definitely don't think any land is worth the deaths of civilians while Hamas uses them as shields for their terrorism and war crimes, and Isreal commits war crimes of collective punishment, etc.
Letting kids and civilians die in an active warzone is madness. I condemn the partnership of Bibi and Hamas (who've been bedfellows since they first got him elected) and just want to save civilians and prevent more atrocities.
If that's the attitude of everyone the whole world will be colonized and subjugated by imperialists. There will be a point where you cannot run anymore. Let me ask you a question, what would you do if this happened to you?
Jordan won't take them because the Palestinians assassinated their king, created a civil war in Jordan, and tried to assassinate their next king.
Lebanon won't take them because they keep joining Hezbollah.
Egypt won't take them because they keep joining up with Muslim Brotherhood and trying to destabilize the government.
Syria won't take them because they're in the middle of a civil war.
Iran won't take them because they're more useful as a tool to destabilize Israel.
Am I missing anyone?
Because the neighboring countries did that in the past in various forms and it fucked them all up in some manner. These are not normal people. They're twisted by decades of living under war or terrorist rule. Their population is so young because everyone old died that half the people alive never actually experienced a stable life. They know nothing but this. As a result they are really hard to integrate.
Because then they risk becoming the target of what Israel buys with the 50 billion dollars Joe Biden just sent to them.
Edit: if to of