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Gaza hospitals ceasing to function as water and fuel run out
(www.theguardian.com)
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this post was submitted on 24 Oct 2023
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Civilians taking refuge away from a war zone is not being ethnically cleansed. FFS. Regardless of whether you think children should be stuck in a warzone,for whatever sick reason, I'd like to see the civilians evacuated.
And if they are not let back in who will hold Israel accountable? Many of the people being bombed refuse to leave their homes for this very reason (as well as the south getting targeted by bombs/no shelter/no supplies either way so might as well keep whatever semblance of dignity they have left). They don't trust Israel to allow them to return home due to historical precedent.
Those who don't want to leave can stay, others shouldn't be forced to become meat shields in a war they didn't want.
Having all your civilians become collateral between the terrorists war crimianls they elected and the war criminal IDF isn't going to hold Israel accountable.
That's the point. Get the civilians out of there.
Tell that to the people that refuse to leave their house due to what I previously described. The last election in Gaza was in 2006. The average resident of Gaza was about 1 year old at the time. This conflict did not start yesterday. The Gazan population does not trust the international community to protect their right to return and they sure don't trust the Israelis.
Right now, civilians don't have a choice to leave the warzone. That's intentional thaks to Hamas, Netanyahu, Egypt, Jordan, etc.
IDC if someone wants to die for dirt. But at least let people who want to save their children, their families, and themselves to exit to safety.
I'm NOT saying force people who want to stay in a warzone over land to leave. I am saying FFS let the ones who want to leave get out. Which they currently can't do.
You can't carpet bomb civilians then blame a country for not accepting 2 million refugees. Leveling the sector with air strikes is not a requirement.
Those countries have refused to take in the refugees for decades. They intentionally wanted them there and suffering. The refusal to take them isn't new, and it isn't all of a sudden because of the bombing.
It's really simple, my guy. Just let people who want to leave the warzone do just that. Debate and argue the grey area later after the civilians are safe.
If you disagree, you're literally saying that civilians should have to stay and die in a warzone, for what I can only guess is some political agenda of yours?
Once again, the continuous bombing is a military choice by Israel. It's because they don't want to fight on the ground and value Palestinian civilian lives infinitely less than they value the lives of their own soldiers.
If that's what you got from what I said then you're deliberately being obtuse. Even if you evacuate 1.5 million civilians to Egypt what do you do with the 500k that stay? Are they alright to kill because they chose to remain in their homes?
I've left my home country due to the deteriorating situation from events indirectly caused by this conflict so I guess that's my "agenda". I am against the collective displacement AND collective punishment of Palestinians and the further destabilization of the region as a sick form of "revenge".
You're trying to argue other issues. They distract from a clear, easy question. I suspect I know why you're trying to avoid the question.
Either you think civilians who want to leave a warzone should be able to, or you don't.
You can try and muddy this very simple question with "what about those who stay", or whether bombing the people who just targeted and murdered over a thousand civilians is legitimate or not, or whether their collective punishment is a war crime, even. I personally believe that it is absolutely a warcrime for Israel to inflict collective punishment... it doesn't matter with respect to the one simple question: should civilians who want to leave be able to.
Debating all that is a mess and already happening in lots of threads and forums everywhere. And should be in another thread.
All I've claimed is that civilians should be able to leave a warzone. Anyone arguing against that absolutely has an agenda and one that they're happy watching babies and civilians die for. Fuck them.
Yes, civilians who want to leave should be able to. Does that change the reality of the situation? Does that make Egyptians willing to take in 2 million refugees because Israel is breaking international law? Does that save the lives of those who stay? Does that eradicate Hamas? Does that resolve the conflict equitably?
Spare me with your "agenda" accusations.
Bombing over 2000 children (so far) is not morally ambiguous. It's never justified. There are other means. If you don't believe that is the case then I urge you to reassess how you value the lives on each side of this conflict.
I am glad you agree they should be able to seek asylum if they want to. That's all I've said the entire time.
The rest is just a distraction from earlier disagreement on that point. It's good you've changed your mind.
Start a thread for any of the other stuff, and we can discuss it.
Right now, civilians don't have a choice to leave the warzone. That's intentional thaks to ~~Hamas~~, Netanyahu, ~~Egypt, Jordan, etc.~~
Ftfy
Because they shouldn’t have to leave their homes.
I get that. Hell they shouldn't have Hamas using them as shields either just bc they elected Hamas. I get it.
But "shouldn't have to" and reality are clashing. And if the option is refugee or civilian deaths then I'd rather they lived.
It would be mathematically impossible for them to have elected Hamas since 50% of them are 18 and younger, and the last election was held over 17 years ago.
And the reason the last election was held so long ago was that after Hamas won elections in Gaza, the west supported a coup that failed and entrenched Hamas in power.
I'd debate that with you, but it distracts from the point. Civilians need a path to refuge and not be forced to stay in rhe Hamas/Israeli warzone.
If they want to stay, go for it. But lots of people who don't want to see their families die, have no way out by design and to the delight of both Hamas and Netanyahu.
You do realize this is advocating for genocide - the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group.
Saving their lives is not advocating for genocide. Giving civilians no exit a warzone is. How is that unclear to you? I can't tell if you're just trolling at this point.
It’s 2.2 million people. It’s a logistical nightmare. Any country/countries that take them in will have a drain on their resources. They will need aid. Or, just spitballing here, Israel could just stop.
And that should happen with them until Israel listens to reason and stops? Because if they stay in Gaza more will die.
It's 2.2m or 2.3m people. Remember Syria? That was 5 millions leaving the country so cut the crap about it being impossible.
I didn’t say it was impossible, it’s impractical. The easier solution is for the world to pressure Israel to stop the bombing.
You're still dodging the issue.
What. Happens. In. The. Meantime?
They won't stop in the next 5 minutes or the next hour or the next day. What do you do to protect the people until the bombing stops?
How many Ukrainians refugees got sent to other countries? Hint: A whole lot more than 2.3 millions.
Ask Israel.
So we should have told all Ukrainians to stay in Ukraine? Same for Syrians? Same for all refugees no matter where they're from? Let's send them back home, it's the aggressor's responsibility not to kill civilians!
I’m not in charge. I gave you my opinion. You don’t like it. What difference will it make if I change my opinion. None. Learn.
The West, particularly the US where I am, has way more power to stop Israel than it has to force Egypt to accept refugees. They don't need to "listen to reason" they need to be told to stop or we'll stop propping up your entire economy and defense apparatus.
Ok? They won't stop in the next hour or two, how do we protect the civilians until they do?
Are you suggesting it's quicker to relocate 2 million people than it is to get a dependent colony to stop committing genocide?
Right now we're moving zero people to safety, both should be done at the same time, moving them somewhere safe AND getting Israel to stop the genocide, what you're arguing in favor of is facilitating the genocide by keeping all the victims at Israel's reach.
No, what I'm arguing in favor of is doing something we actually we actually have the power to do. Of course Palestinians who want to leave should be able to do so, but unless you're suggesting that we should send a massive convoy of boats to pick up hundreds of thousands of fleeing Palestinians, we have no power to help them get to safety. Even if we could force Egypt to to accept refugees, we would have to get Israel to open the Rafah Crossing which would take as much time as it would to get them to stop bombing entirely.
I think at this point, the genocide is in progress. Like the caregivers in this article, what we're discussing is triage.
I think it's unconscionable to evacuate the Gaza strip, because we all know that the intention is to never allow the refugees to return. But I would like the Palestinians of Gaza to have the option to choose whether to survive in exile or die in their homes.
I believe that the Palestinian identity can survive in a diaspora. But that's all academic. These people deserve the option to escape, even regardless of what it means for the future of their ethnic group. It's a painful choice, but it should be there's.
If some decide to stay, what happens to them? Does the world condemn them to death because it’s too problematic to deal with? Does the world force them at gunpoint? Israel has the power to stop this, it’s the easier path.
Oh wow, how magnanimous of you.
If it was any other country your argument would be substantive. But we are talking about Israel and Palestine. Anyone who leaves will not be able to return. That's how it's always been. And for the Palestinians, their land is their existence. They will not give it up. They know the second they leave, it's been lost.
And I said fine let those who want to stay do just that. But people who want to leave have a right to be able to do so.
My only argument is that people who want to leave should be able to. These nutjob radicals in here are literally downvoting opening a corridor for refugees who DO want to leave to be free of a warzone.
It's insane how fucked that is, that anyone would even argue against giving them the option. And it makes their motives highly dubious and likely their arguments disingenuous and politically motivated.
Funny thing - Israel did exactly what you're suggesting. They told Gazans to flee to Egypt via the Rafah Crossing, then Israel bombed the Rafah Crossing.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-said-to-bomb-rafah-crossing-to-egypt-after-telling-gazans-to-flee-through-it/
Uhm, in the article you linked there is only Hamas claiming there were bombings on Rafah Crossing. It doesn't have any proof or source that is showing the bombings did indeed happen.
Civilians taking refuge away from a warzone is how the Jewish Diaspora began.
So you are arguing that people who want to leave a warzone shouldn't be allowed to?
Just oof, that's a terrible take. Please clarify if that's not the case.
At least I'm not arguing in favor of the warzone.