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this post was submitted on 18 Oct 2023
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The problem I have with this narrative isn't who dropped the bomb. Tbh they're probably right it was a Palestinian missile. It's the sheer audacity for all these western countries to be shocked and say let's figure this out, as Israel just dropped like 6000 bombs in 6 days. They're worried about one bomb but not the 6000 others, cause ya know, those were killing only Hamas and not injured people in a hospital /s.
While the Muslim world looks on in horror at more bombing in a conflict that has been going on for decades, the western world is focused on insignificant details. Who carried out what attack. Who dropped what bomb. Which act is more morally reprehensible. None of this solves the problem of a displaced people. Only the US can pressure Israel to accept a two state solution. That's the only peaceful solution possible for this conflict imo. The other solution is to wipe out Gaza and the West Bank and everyday we're getting closer to that.
A two-state-solution doesn't work in part because extremist Muslim groups want the are to be purely Muslim. They would continue to attack Israel with terror tactics, Like they did from the start. What is your solution to that?
Swap Muslim with Jewish and Israel with Palestine and it's the same problem... to be clear I think both are true but it's kinda weird to single one out.
I single them out because the extremist Muslim groups on Palestinian side have openly admitted, repeatedly, that the goal ist to exterminate all Jews from the area and make it a pure Muslim country.
If you have some sources that show the same was said from Israeli side about Palestine, please show me. Because what I see in this conflict is not as simple as people like to make it out to be. It's not just evil colonizers trying to snag land from a victim country that wants a two-state-solution.
Yeah, the people of Palestine haven't exactly been pushing for a two state solution and they back/vote in groups that want to exterminate the jews and enforce Sharia law wherever they can.
Even if Israel wanted a two state solution they're not going to get it. Not until Palestinians can come up with a functional government that isn't made up of a group that has genocide as one of their stated political goals.
And I mean actual genocide, the attempt to end a genetic lineage through violence, not the "genocide" of lemmy which essentially just means "cultural disruption/assimilation", a widening of definition that allows them to pretend that it's equal on both sides cause "they're both committing genocide!"
Sorry man, it's not a "Lemmy" definition, that's literally a type of genocide as defined by the UN.
Yes, the definition is vague: https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
It hinges on "intent", which needs to be inferred and interpreted. It includes terms like "in whole or in part", and does not specify how many "members of the group" are the lower limit.
However, the main point of R0cket_M00se still stands. There is a significant width in the spectrum of acts and intents which can be classified as genocide, with Hamas proudly on the upper end.
If the word you choose to describe forced cultural assimilation and mass slaughter for the intended purpose of annihilating an entire group of people based on their race are the same, your definition is useless.
That's like calling a playground fight between kids attempted murder, it makes the word worthless when you water it down to mean any violence at all.
It's kind of funny to me listening to people who advocate for separate states. I mean, sure, do it. But don't expect that to stop religious zealots from firing peace rockets at each other.
It won't stop anything, a two state solution is a joke.
The best case scenario now is for Palestinians to assimilate into other Muslim countries, it's not ideal but it's probably the way fewest people will die.
So not a defense of Hamas but because you ask. Here are a few news articles demonstrating genocidal action by Israeli government or calls for genocide by political/religious leaders in Israel. In addition there was a real chance of a two state solution with the Olso Accords but they were never completed with the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin in 1995 by hard right Israelis opsed to any peace agreement.
I am sure that there are plenty more examples, they tend to just be not as widely reported. Also because someone is going to say something. Both the wide spread killing or the wide spread displacement of the group of people is genocide.
https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14836.doc.htm
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-60197918
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/concentrate-and-exterminate-israel-parliament-deputy-speakers-gaza-genocide-plan
The Facebook post from the article with with translation below(Google translate)
https://www.facebook.com/MFeiglin/posts/695450140534104
in her in honor of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu Mr. Prime Minister It has just become known that Hamas took advantage of the ceasefire to kidnap an officer. It turns out that this sale is not going to end so soon. The failures of the operation were inherent in it from the beginning because: A - He does not have a correct and clear goal. B - There is no proper moral envelope that supports our soldiers. What is required now is to realize that Oslo is over, that this is our country - only our country, including Gaza! There are no two countries and no two peoples - there is only one country for one people. As a result of this internalization, a deep and fundamental strategic change is required - both in the definition of the enemy, both in the definition of the mission, both in the definition of the strategic target and of course - in the definition of the correct and necessary fighting ethics. 1 - Defining the enemy The strategic enemy is radical Arab Islam in all its metastases from Iran to Gaza, which seeks to eliminate all of Israel. The enemy in sight is Hamas. (Not the tunnels, not the rockets - Hamas) 2 - Defining the task: The occupation of the entire strip and the elimination of all the fighting forces and their supporters. 3 - Defining the strategic goal: turn Gaza into Jaffa. A flourishing Israeli city with a minimum of hostile citizens. 4 - Definition of fighting ethics: "Woe to the wicked and woe to his neighbor" In light of these four points, Israel must immediately carry out the following actions: A - The IDF will define open areas on the Sinai border and close to the sea where the civilian population will be concentrated - away from the built-up area and the launch and tunnel areas. Tent camps will be set up in these areas until relevant immigration targets are located. The supply of electricity and water to areas that were inhabited will be cut off. B - The areas that were populated will be bombarded with maximum firepower. All civilian and military Hamas facilities, means of communication and logistics - will be completely destroyed. C - The IDF will cut the strip lengthwise and wide, greatly expand the axes, take control of controlled areas and destroy the nests of resistance if any remain. D - Israel will begin locating countries and immigration quotas for Gaza refugees. Those interested in immigrating will receive a generous financial aid package and will arrive in the receiving countries with significant financial capacity. E - Those who insist on staying and prove that they have no connection to Hamas, will be required to publicly sign a declaration of loyalty to Israel and will receive a blue identity card similar to that of East Jerusalem Arabs. And - with the end of the fighting, the Israeli law will be applied in the entire strip, the deportees of Gush Katif will be invited to return to their settlements and the city of Gaza and its daughters will be built as Israeli tourist and commercial cities for all intents and purposes. Mr. Prime Minister! This is a moment of fateful decision in the days of the State of Israel. All enemy factions, from Iran and Hezbollah to Daesh and the Muslim Brotherhood - are now rubbing their hands with pleasure and preparing themselves for the next round. I warn you that any result that is less than what is defined here means encouraging the continuation of the offensive against Israel. Only if Hezbollah understands how Hamas was treated in the south, will it refrain from launching its 100,000 missiles - from the north. I urge you to adopt the strategy suggested here. I have no doubt that like me, the entire nation of Israel will overwhelmingly stand to your right - if you only dare. With great respect and appreciation Moshe Feigli
Did you read those articles? The first two don't address or hint at genocidal plans from Israel against the ethnic group "Palestinian" at all. The third article is about one (!) extremist politician who's party didn't even get into the parliament because they didn't have enough votes. That actually goes against your notion that Israels goal is a genocide against Palestinians.
This is not about disputing war crimes from Israel. It's specifically about the question whether or not Israel wants an ethnical cleansing on Palestinians. And that this is the reason for the actions from their side.
Not sure what you want? Are you hoping that Bebe put at a press release where he details the plan to commit genocide? That politician is a member of the ruling Likud party and yes he is extreme but that just means he is more likely to say the quiet part out loud.
Article 2 of the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide details what the international definition of genocide is. It going to be very hard to find new or governments using the word. Because it means that then one needs to act on it or there is a implied complicity to the genocide. So you just need to ask your self do these actions rise to genocide? Because you wouldn't hear western news or politicians saying regardless of how bad it gets.
New article about the Center for Constitutional Rights using the word genocide. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ccr-accuses-israel-of-genocide-against-palestinians-alleges-us-complicity/ar-AA1ivib9
https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/national/the-weight-of-genocide-why-leaders-are-hesitant-to-use-the-word
Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as
... any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2[7]
https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/learn-about-genocide-and-other-mass-atrocities/what-is-genocide
There isn't a solution and just to be clear proto Israelis take part in a civilian bombing campaign inside of mandatory Palestine because they also do not believe any other religion should exist.
If you're going to paint a picture don't just throw shade at one when both deserve it.
How do you explain 20 % of Israel citizens being Palestinian, when Israel supposedly want Palestinians to not exist?
Concessions for image, apparently it's fairly effective given your response.
Misinformation on the scale of "a building was destroyed that clearly is still intact" deserves focus. If they'll lie about shit that can be confirmed with a tiny bit of research, what else is getting exaggerated?
The reason for the focus is that it was deliberately being used in a disinformation campaign. Were that not the case, I think you're right that it would have faded into the background noise as just one bomb among 6000 others.
It's almost like they went through two attempts to end their people in a twenty-ish year period of time.
People "fighting for their homeland" rarely just give up. And you've got two sides who earnestly believe they're doing just that.
There's no peace here. Northern Ireland managed it, but the body counts and level of violence aren't even remotely comparable. It took Israel and Palestine about a week to blow through what The Troubles took 40 years to kill.
Each time it kicks off we in the West wonder how we could solve it. We can't. It's not our problem to fix. We certainly had a hand in making it but it's an impossible tangle of blood, bodies and beliefs that nobody can undo.
The world's media looks on but we're mostly just rubbernecking. Few of us have any skin in the game. Takes our mind off our own shit countries I suppose.
There is no two sides. One foreign people wanted another people's land, and they used some past ancestry / religious fanaticism / racism to commit atrocities in the process of stealing the land.
Burying the Nakba: How Israel Systematically Hides Evidence of 1948 Expulsion of Arabs
Classified Docs Reveal Massacres of Palestinians in '48 – and What Israeli Leaders Knew
When former IDF soldiers and Holocaust survivors take a firm anti-Zionist stance, it's probably because the Zionist side is shit.
Breaking the Silence is also an Israeli organization composed of IDF veterans giving testimonies such as the IDF using ambulances to conceal combatants or using human shields.
You will not achieve peace by totally dismissing one party at the table. You have not proposed any solutions or even a path to a solution.
You have only encouraged more violence by pointing fingers.
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former IDF soldiers
Holocaust survivors
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In fairness, most of the people in Gaza have been born and raised in an era where the strip is their homeland. They've never experienced a settlement, they've been ruled by Palestinians their whole lives and the borders were the same as the 1967 ones.
Yeah it's so fair that they get to live in an open air prison that's been under blockade for 20 years. You make it sound like Gaza is a functioning country.
An objectively ineffective blockade based on the amount of rocket fire coming out of Gaza.
Also worth saying that the two sides in Northern Ireland, although originally sundered on the basis of sectarian religion, still shared a suite of cultural commonalities inasmuch as they were all basically from Ireland and the British Isles and had similarly bad teeth, cock-eyed inbred ugliness together with a generalized dislike of anyone perceived as an outsider, but.
Even now, my brain won't ever wrap its head around modern countries like Ireland and N. Ireland feeling the need for things like "peace walls" between neighbors.
Your comment sums up a lot of my feelings: a true peace can't be forced from the outside. It's way too complicated and emotional for simplistic shit. And you can see it in the comments around here too. Everyone's wrapped up in intense anger, blame, and reciting the litany of past horrors as justification for new ones.
Part of the problem is that Hamas won't accept a two state solution, either. The people in power on both sides have made it clear that they want the other eradicated. If Hamas and the Israeli government were to disappear then maybe that could happen, but even then there is so much deep rooted hatred amongst those populations for them to realistically live in relative peace while being in such close proximity to each other.
I don't honestly know of a great solution besides Israel replacing their government, and the ultra nationalistic conservative half of the Gaza strip moving out, or vice versa.
I like your take. Most actors involved in this conflict have tunnel vision and that will only lead to more violence.
Even some victims of Hamas' violence are calling on TV for reflection instead of seeking revenge. Revenge only feeds a never-ending cycle of violence with no end in sight. Israel's Government will have to own up to having allowed/encouraged Hamas with the single purpose of derailing two-state efforts and that has failed horribly.
Or, you know, a solution that isn't imposed by western colonialists, maybe? But by the sovereign people that inhabit the region?
https://www.youtube.com/live/Iir51O3JMqc
Otherwise, I agree with everything you said.
It really doesn't matter what you call them or how you feel about it, Israel is in the position to call the shots and the US is their most influential ally on this. Israel isn't going to magically go the peaceful route without external pressure, and you have to be fucking joking to think they care what Palestinians care.
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https://www.piped.video/live/Iir51O3JMqc
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
what makes you think anything would change if nobody did anything? of course there needs to be an external pressure to change something about the situation. otherwise israel will just keep on decimating palestine population and it will end with a singular state. is that what you want?
I added an Al Jazeera video argument of a single state. It is not a defense of the zionist fundamentalist terrorists state.
It's a defense of a multi ethnic state, run by the people for the people.
If nobody did anything maybe in 50 years the social indexes may improve by collective work of the people that live there, and know the right priorities, like Vietnam is recovering after the US simply stopped bombing the shit out of that land.