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this post was submitted on 17 Sep 2023
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The issue is a little more nuanced than that. Most buildings can only install a few EV chargers before they need to upgrade the mains, and if that needs to be done, the transformers likely aren’t adequate, and the local grid may not be able to withstand it as well.
The owners costs ends at the transformers, taxpayers and the energy corp are in for the rest, and until the energy corp upgrades the grid and transformers, building owners can only do so much.
If the infrastructure can't handle it, then upgrade the fucking infrastructure! Politicians will fall at voters' feet to build new roads, highways, etc., but when it comes to the green energy transition, there's no problem too minuscule to be ignored!
I'll happily admit that there are going to be many issues in the green energy transition; we should acknowledge them, but we should also strive to address them, rather than throwing our hands up in the air and idly promulgating the status quo.
Switching from one type of car to another isn't a green transition. Car production still creates enormous co2 emissions, paving everything for cars makes heat islands, tires produce piles of particulate pollution, and so on. Fixing the car pollution problem means moving to other forms of transportation, not just slightly-less-bad automobiles.
Amen. Don't have to worry about the house, neighborhood, or city infrastructures supporting your EV if your EV is an ebike that can plug into a standard outlet in your living room, or wherever you keep it. Or if you can just walk a quarter mile and hop on a light rail. Or if instead of driving a Ford, you just use your Chevrolegs. Of course, this does also require development patterns to support it, i.e. roads that aren't fucking death traps for anyone outside a car and stuff being close enough together that you can actually get to it in a reasonable amount of time, but hey, there are also non-car-related reasons we should be doing those things too.
They are upgrading it, as people need it and as fast as they can ahead of planned upgrades.
There shortages on parts, so most are being done as required, but to think it’s not being upgraded (in most places, local bullshit aside) is just pure ignorance.
I'm sure people are trying to address the problems, I'm not saying that's not happening. What I find maddening however is the double standard between how issues are handled when it's fossil fuels vs. green energy. Every tiny issue with green energy is breathlessly amplified, while there's no shortage of idiotic solutions to resolve issues in carbon-based energy infrastructure.
It's this atmosphere that I'm trying to raise awareness of and change!
"The grid can't handle it" is a bullshit argument that is easy to sell to people who want to keep their IC cars. The difference between highest demand and lowest demand in Ontario this week was 7000MW, if everyone charges their car at night there is power available AND it helps increase the base load which is good for the gird operators.
Even individual buildings may not need to upgrade their main service even with rapid chargers, the operators just need to keep in mind not to run the oven, dryer, AC and car charger at the same time.
https://www.ieso.ca/power-data
Yes the power plants can pump out enough, but not all transfer stations are able to handle the load, each individual hub, may not be able to handle the load.
It’s far more nuanced than this even, but don’t believe everything everyone is selling you, everyone has an agenda and no one is going to tell you the entire truth.
If an entire block suddenly goes EV one night the infrastructure isn’t there, it’s slowly being updated which you don’t see, but there’s issues out there.
Moot point, nowhere will suddenly switch to electric vehicles overnight.
New Brunswick had a program in the 1970s/80s to get people to switch to electric home heating due to the oil shocks. That was far more ambitious than what is being proposed here.
Edit. I was curious, so I looked up recent numbers for home heating in NB, as it's the area I'm most familiar with.
From 2000-2020, the number of residences increased by 46,000 (285,000 to 331,000). Overall, 72% of which are detached houses. The market share of electric heating went from 57% overall to 79% in those 22 years.
New generation was limited to ~400MW nameplate of wind and one 250MW combined cycle natural gas plant, while several older coal/heavy oil units were mothballed, so overall output hardly changed.
There are a lot of places that grew a lot faster. Yet, the power stayed on.
Everyone in the burbs run their AC full tilt all summer and the grid holds up just fine. An EV charger used overnight, when your AC runs less, would present no more of a load than the daytime high usage. Stop pushing anti-electrification bullshit, or move to Alberta, they love that shit.
Who charges overnight? Everyone just plugs it in when they get home. It’s an issue that can’t just be handwaved away like that.
Sure stuff can be on a timer, but codes need to be presented, adopted and they need to installed. That takes years, it’s already too late.
Dude, electric car's are about 25 computers on wheels. Adding a "charge between hours" function is so trivial I would be surprised if it doesn't already exist. But no, you're right, computers are a complicated pipe dream, we should all go back to coal burning, steam powered, difference engines and horseless carriages.
I own an EV and there's definitely a setting in the car to specify what time of day to charge (and my charger itself also has an app where I can specify that time restriction).
This is no different from the widespread adoption of electric clothes dryers, water heaters or domestic home air conditioning. Electrical distribution is never static.
It is far different, the scales at play just aren’t the same and a lot of distribution centers are already near capacity even if the grid can supply enough.
Your not wrong that it’s not static, but it’s ignorant to believe that it’s even on the same scale as any of those adoptions.
Add in there has been a transformer shortage since before covid started…. Yeah it’s not the same.
It's exactly the same. You're adding one 30-50A circuit to residential that will be used intermittently, and primarily during off peak hours. Very, very few vehicles will need a full charge every night, and the software on the charger side typically meters in current at much less than capacity if it's on a schedule, as the lower the current, the less heat, and less stress on the battery . Large charging stations are on par with commercial/light industrial, and we add that sort of load all the time.
I've worked for power utilities for 25 years on the generation side with some on the T&D side. The planners spend a pile of time on analysis to determine where additional load and/or sources are being added and triage based on that. When old stuff is scheduled for replacement, sometimes an upgrade is warranted, sometimes not, based on that analysis.
A lot of electrical equipment currently has long lead times. I've got quotes for up to 70 weeks on some stuff. It's been a side effect of relying on dodgy suppliers overseas. It has been improving.
Also, on 2400w an EV can charge a significantly large amount overnight. You mightn't need a charge point in the first place.
2400W x number of occupants is still some series draw on their main panel.
Their point still stands that their mains would need an upgrade.
Electrician here, no it would not need to upgrade your panel to add a charger. If you have an intermittent load, like a car charger, you can add it on to your panel provided you don't run it along with your other high power, intermittent loads (clothes dryer, oven).
I hadn't considered that aspect, thank you for the information!
No worries it’s a concern for even single family homes as well, a transformer can normally supply 4-6 houses, but put an EV in every house and they can only do 2.
Most people in non-modern homes will likely need a new panel and mains, same issue applies to the transformers and beyond there as well. Homeowner is responsible to the transformer.
That talking point is a bit out of date - the average price for a car int he USA (for example) is quite a bit higher than base EVs now. They're cheaper to manufacture and gas vehicles won't be able to compete. The only missing piece is infrastructure for charging in some places.
It won't be long before EVs are the cheap option. Tesla for instance is supposedly putting out a cheap option soon, but I'm not holding my breath.
Tesla is probably a good one to bank on, though. The gigacasting process shaves a LOT of manufacturing cost.
That's good to hear, but I think it's disingenuous to say that EVs are the cheaper option when talking about people who aren't within reach of even the cheapest new cars. Until we start seeing used decent condition EVs under $10k they're still out of reach to a lot of people. It sucks because these are the same people who would benefit most from the lower operating costs.
Sure. But that's something that'll come with time. We should be preparing our infrastructure for five-ten years from now, not this year. If we wait until EVs are sub-10k used, then we'll have a massive infrastructure crunch.
Yes, you can make an argument now for EVs being a rich person plaything, but that's a snapshot in time. The curves are trending downward fast.
In a few years, gas vehicles are going to be for the rich assholes who refuse to get with the program and demand their precious gas stations get subsidized by the government more than they are already. It might not be too long before gas stations in city cores are completely uneconomic because 20%+ of their customer base evaporated.
There will almost certainly be a period where people are trying to dump their gas vehicles, selling them way below market, which will make them attractive to the less wealthy, which will also very much increase the temptation for governments to subsidize gas infrastructure. :(
That will further increase the price pressure on gas vehicles, they'll be screwed by the new cheap EVs AND the cheap used gas market.
Man, it's really unfair to make me pay for the roads on the other side of town. I never drive on them!
Either the costs are shared between renters, like pools and other benefits, or they are charged to the people who use them. It is very likely that a portion will be shared by all with additional cost on use like parking often is.