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this post was submitted on 16 Sep 2023
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Being tired and thinking Bureau of Land Management made this very confusing at glance.
Also fuck the courts for that BS.
Why is it "fuck the courts"? This whole thing is about what a worker can do while on the job... If a company doesn't want to be associated with something it should have a right to employ whatever restrictions on dress it wants. That's kind of the point of dress codes with companies to begin with.
dress code is also completely made up bullshit that has no reason to exist in the modern world
why does a company's right to "employ whatever restrictions on dress it wants" overrule the person's innate wish to express themselves?
Companies can choose who works there just as people can choose who to work for. If companies don't like what an employee is wearing then they can fire them, and if people don't like what a company isn't allowing them to wear they can quit.
but in actual practice, people are basically locked into jobs. it is not reasonable for someone to have to switch jobs over dress code and you know that; the employer shouldn't just get to slowly immiserate people
Oh okay, we have just as much choice about where we work as they have about who they hire? 🙄
If you say so captain.
This is a ridiculous notion.
There are plenty of people that would show up to work without bathing while wearing sweatpants and teddy bear slippers if they were allowed. Source: I worked in a low-end call center fresh out of school and a good quarter of the people actually did dress like this most days.
Without a dress code a business has no grounds to address the situation.
If I walked into a new grocery chain or restaurant and everyone was dressed in dirty house clothes the best reaction I would have is to ask someone if this was a joke day. The more likely reaction would be just turning around and walking out.
Do workers have the right to refuse to be associated with something that the company want them to display on their dress code? For example, a corporate sponsor? If no, why do companies deserve more rights than people?
Yes... by leaving/quitting/etc...
So that’s a no, then - you don’t have a right for something if you have to leave the system to exercise the right. For example you wouldn’t have the right of freedom of speech if I said “yeah you can say whatever you want if you leave the country!”
So, why do companies deserve more rights than people?
They don't... It's their property. Just like you would have a right to ask someone to leave your property at anytime for any reason.
Okay so imagine that you’re on Elon Musk’s private jet, 36000 feet in the air, and he asks you to strip down into a thong and perform an erotic dance for him. It’s his property, he has the right to tell you what to wear. If you don’t like it, you’re free to leave; of course. Do you think that’s acceptable?
Yes you would have a right to leave at any time. Failure on Elon's part to allow you off the craft promptly and in safe manner would literally be kidnapping or unlawful detention. Which I believe would be up to 3 years of imprisonment... and generally a felony.
Also, would probably be soliciting and probably a whole slew of other illegal actions here if that situation would occur.
Did you think you had a gotcha there?
So, if Elon puts you into a position where you have to choose between following his rules or risk to your health and safety, it’s kidnapping, unlawful detention, etc. but if Amazon puts you into a position where you have to choose between following their rules or risk your health and safety, that’s completely acceptable?
Do you not realise that you completely walked back on your “my property, my rules” claim?
Care to elaborate on how not wearing a pin/mask with specific decoration is risking health and safety?
You got that a bit turned around, there.
Choose between following their rules (not wearing a pin/mask) or risk your health and safety (lose your income, health insurance, ability to provide food/shelter for your family)
Not at all... Theft is against the contract/policy of a company as well. If we catch employees stealing shit can the company not fire the employee? How about constantly taking 5 minutes extra on their smoke breaks? Following customers around unwantedly?
The policies/contract is written. Should we just ignore it all for everything just because the person would lose benefits/income? The company should just be forced to pay an employee indefinitely regardless of any/all rules? The worker agreed to the contract when they got hired.
Once again... if you don't like the rules... you don't have to work there.
No... not wearing a pin or mask with logos... They can wear a mask... And probably are encouraged to wear a mask. Don't go off making this a health thing for making them take off a specific mask with logos. I can promise that a manager in the situation grabbed a box of masks and offered a replacement to just move on with life.
Although to be fair, I don't shop there... I have no idea what Whole Foods requirements are with masks. But I am willing to bet that they had other masks available for workers to use. As I can walk in basically any store and ask for one and be given one as a customer... let alone as a worker.
Affordable Care Act.
If you get fired for this (as was the case in the story) you'd be eligible for a number of things like unemployment, food stamps, etc...
If you stole from Elon Musk’s private jet, shouldn’t he be allowed to throw you off the plane? Like it was kind of implied that you’d have to follow Elon’s rules when you got on the plane, and it was in that 10,000 page EULA you clicked “I agree” on… should Elon really be forced to carry people on his jet whom don’t follow the rules? If you don’t like them, you can get off the plane.
Don’t worry, if you’re falling through the sky, you’ll be eligible for a parachute, just send away form 117b and wait 6-9 months for your request to be denied, then you can hire a lawyer and file an appeal! Usually that should be sufficient to get you the parachute you need.
Oh, what’s that, you already hit the ground and died? Ah well, should have just danced for Elon I guess.
Care to elaborate? Or are we just going to drive-by name call and add nothing to the conversation?
I don't think I am... That situation doesn't even apply to this story. This would imply that workers don't have access to the dress code prior to starting the job, which I've already shown isn't the case (somewhere... might not have been in this particular thread). This stupid situation would make more sense if Elon told you that in order to fly with him you needed to dress like a stripper prior to getting on the plane... then you get on the plane and get mad when he ejects you for not being in proper uniform.
You call it pedantic... but EVEN in this stupidly constructed case... it's a dumb premise and it's clear that the right persists regardless.
If someone had a necklace with a cross on it, can Amazon ban it? Should they ban it?
How about non-religious ear rings or other jewelry? How about a hair bun? Wedding ring?
There's generally some leeway given for cultural adornments. So the question is what specifically is bad about a BLM adornment?
Yes, but not "Ban" but make "not visible". Things that cannot be banned are required religious symbols. Think Yarmulca or the Sikh turban (sorry I don't know the proper name). Where the religion requires wear. The cross can simply be worn under the shirt and not be visible. Dress code is all about visibility. You won't find a dress code that mandates undergarments for example. There is of course caveats with some jobs where wearing of the item presents an actual safety risk... Eg necklack falls out of the shirt and gets caught in machinery and now there's a bloody mess all over the floor. But even with protected items like a turban, if it displayed logos the company would probably be in the right to ask you to change into a different turban that was more neutral.
Yes... I've worked in places that had such rules. A simple example would be the military. I've not seen Wedding ring restriction... but can think of several cases where that would be reasonable to also limit. Lots of people willingly stopped wearing their wedding bands in my motorpool after someone degloved a finger... I have seen plenty of places that ask people to remove other piercings/jewelry and it was a non-issue.
If they're applying the policy fairly... which according to the court case findings they are/did... And that policy was effectively "no logos"... Then everything you've mentioned doesn't fall within the policy. I don't think I've ever seen a wedding ring with a Mountain Dew logo on it (like articles of clothing).
Here's a rendition of the general policy per a thread from 2 years ago https://www.reddit.com/r/wholefoods/comments/nxgnje/whats_the_dress_code/
Similar codes published by other users at https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Whole-Foods-Market/faq/what-is-the-dress-code?quid=1bk0o1sch5n8v93m in 2020. It's a quick google search to find more references if you'd like.
Nothing here would limit religious garb, rings or other jewelry, and I'm sure some other section would cover hair than the one that was furnished. Requiring a bun or other hair style for longer hair makes sense for anyone dealing with food, so at face value not illogical to see. So I'm not sure why you're bringing all this up. Could a company require compliance with these things? Sure... If you want to be paid to work, you follow the rules. Otherwise, go find another job elsewhere. It's like trying to work for a high end upscale restaurant... then being mad that you have to wear a suit.
I'm bringing it up because the rules are inconsistent. A wedding ring is a cultural adornment. It's allowed except in scenarios that involves using machinery that it would be a health hazard.
So we have many cultural adornments allowed, except this one particular one. So it's not "the rules are the rules" kind of scenario. There is a specific reason why the BLM masks are being singled out.
Masks are allowed. Similar to a hair scrunchy or hair clip it's something the company should prefer the employees to wear because it improves safety.
Does having BLM on the mask make it a safety concern? Nope, it doesn't. The mask improves safety having a mask that the employee likes wearing makes it more likely they'll wear it, so allowing BLM masks is encouraging better safety.
And what's the reason? The far right has deemed a cultural item to be undesirable. Why would a political movement deem a cultural adornment often worn by a certain ethnicity to be undesirable?
Sorry but logic just isn't on your side with this one. It's discouraging a commonly accepted cultural adornment that's being done solely out of political motivations of the employer. Other cultural adornments are allowed (some are even encouraged when they improve safety) but this particular adornment is being singled out despite the fact that it improves safety. The BLM masks are only considered political speech by a subset of the population who are of a certain political persuasion.
It's a politically motivated attack against cultural expression, ie. culture war bullshit. Am I meant to not notice that there's one political party is promoting this "culture war" crap and pretend the actions of Amazon aren't politcal while some underpaid worker wearing a BLM mask isn't cultural?
Not at all.. It's not breaking the rule because the rule isn't "no cultural adornment" ... It's no brands or logos.
Why do I have to keep fucking repeating this on every damn thread?
BLM is not trademarked (people have tried and failed though!) so it's not a brand. It's three letters so it doesn't qualify as a logo. If it were consistently stylized then maybe it could be considered a logo. But there's not consistency in the stylization, only thing that's consistent is it's the same three letters from the alphabet in the same order.
LOL <- do you think that's a logo too? If so then, LOL at your silly rationalization. Oh noes, someone might sue me for infringing on the "LOL" brand/logo!
Now you're assuming what the actual design of the pin and mask were... Do you know it was just "BLM"... and why wouldn't that count as a brand/logo? Just because it's not trademarked it's not a logo? That's silly and certainly not a consideration for what is and isn't a logo. There are many masks and pins that are absolutely stylized. But I have no idea which these people were wearing so I won't speak to that.
LOL can be a logo. But I find myself again pointing to the rules that Whole Foods have in place...
"plain", "one color", and NO pins... These things are obvious and clear words that don't leave imagination to the intention of management. Even if it was just the letters BLM put together in a neutral font... it's still a violation of the contract you would have agreed to in order to work there. If you have no intention of following the rules, then don't work there... and certainly don't "surprise pikachu" when you get fired.
But even to just the point of what a logo is...
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/logo
2: an identifying symbol (as for use in advertising) 3: an identifying statement : motto
We could argue that BLM meets or doesn't meet requirement for definition 2... But it DEFINITELY meets definition 3. BLM just on it's own is 1 of 2 things... Bureau of Land Management, or "Black Lives Matter" (whether the non-profit or the movement). It's definitely identifying because nobody is wearing a Bureau of Land Management mask or pin.
Jesus you're down to the third definition in one dictionary. I've seen some weak ass internet lawyering in my time but holy shit.
Why not just be honest about things? You've gotten convinced by right wing political narratives about what BLM is and because of culture war politics you want to repress this cultural artifact?
So this is just a political faction using fear and intimidation to repress culture. Go ahead with your silly "the rules are the rules" bullshit, but it's obvious that many cultural adornments are considered acceptable by Amazon except this particular one because they're afraid of a violent political faction or are perhaps in agreement with that political faction. Either way it's a political faction repressing culture, ie. Culture War. It's not even like anyone's subtle about their motives in all of this. Why are you trying so hard to be?
If you believe that the rule is being applied unfairly, then you might want to reach out to the lawyers that took the case to court... You know since the case was readily dismissed they might want your legal insight. Maybe they'll sign you on as partner!
Or... It's as simple as it seems. The employee broke the policy... and was fired for cause after failing to remedy.
Ah yes.. the MAGA losers turned me! That must be it. Not that I know how to read policies before I start working for a company... or actively participate in my job in a meaningful way.
Sigh... I swear this was already covered... Nothing with logos/branding. Just because you find value in it doesn't make it appropriate.
The workplace isn't the place to have your "culture war". If you want to "war" at work... don't be surprised when you get fired.
Edit: The sad part about all of this... I fucking HATE Bezos/Amazon. But you're all so fucking stuck on this shit that you think I'm defending them. I'm not. I wish them to fail in the most spectacular way possible. But really? We're all up and arms about a fucking dress code? Seriously? fucking 20 years ago I was bussing tables at a steakhouse and guess what... There was a fucking dress code. This isn't something new.
You've got some is/ought fallacy going on here. And it's unfortunate. But I'm not sure if comparing something as culturally ubiquitous as a wedding ring compares to something as divisive as BLM. Yes, it's unfortunate that BLM is divisive. It ought not be. Yes, you could even say wedding rings are symbols of power and oppression, and ought be considered in the same way as BLM. But that is not the case.
Wedding rings are symbols of power and oppression.
I just said that. If you disagree then that means wedding rings are a divisive issue. Since it's a divisive issue it should be banned.
You're using tautological logic here. Anything that's divisive is political, anyone declaring they disagree with anything makes something divisive, therefore anything people disagree over is political. Anything political should be banned. All power is given to those who decide what is political and what isn't because anything can be declared political.
Given we're in a culture where people will feign disagreement and argue in bad faith, the logical result is employers have absolute control over employees. Starting to feel really dystopian if we follow this kind of logic.
Honestly do you really think there is no intent behind the culture war strategy of declaring anything associated with minority groups to be "divisive" in an effort to have it banned? Who actually believes black lives don't matter? Should anyone try to appease that sort of person?
There’s a joke in an episode of the new Reno 911 where they go out on a call about BLM setting fires.
This mix up is also included on The White Lotus