Capital successfully fought to put lead into American's blood and lungs for a century after it was known to be poison. To this day they're still fighting to keep it there.
EDIT: based on another commenter, OP's claim isn't even factual.
And it took the US until 1996 (after fall of USSR)? Not to mention that it was capitalism (General Motors) that spread the hoax about leaded gasoline being safe, under the guise of scientific research in 1921.
Okay? And? The USSR was the center of a massive empire and exploited the hell out of that empire. They definitely had the resources to be the world's scientific runner up.
Nevertheless, the Soviet Union took
effective action to protect the population from lead exposure; it
banned lead-based (white lead) paint and it banned the sale of
leaded gasoline in some cities and regions.
While leaded gasoline was introduced in the 1920s in the
United States, it was not until the 1940s that leaded gasoline was
introduced in the Soviet Union (5). In the 1950s, the Soviet Un-
ion became the first country to restrict the sale of leaded gaso-
line; in 1956, its sale was banned in Moscow, Leningrad, Kiev,
Baku, Odessa, and tourist areas in the Caucasus and Crimea, as
well as in at least one of the “closed cities” of the nuclear weap-
ons complex (6, 7). The motivation for the bans on leaded gaso-
line is not entirely clear, but factors may have included Soviet
research on the effects of low-level lead exposure (8), or sup-
port from Stalin himself (5). In any event, the bans on leaded
gasoline in some areas prevented what could have been signifi-
cant population lead exposure. In the United States and other
OECD countries, leaded gasoline has been identified as one of
the largest sources of lead exposure (9, 10).
Lead-based paint is another potentially significant source of
population lead exposure.
Bonus: a great example of capital at work,
Along with a number of other coun-
tries, in the 1920s the Soviet Union adopted the White Lead
Convention, banning the manufacture and sale of lead-based (white
lead) paint (11). In the United States, however, the National
Paint, Oil and Varnish Association successfully opposed the ban,
and lead-based paint was not banned in the United States until
1971 (12).
The first commenter is talking a hypothetical scenario of socialism being bad, so the second commenter (the one you responded to) responded with actual example of that same hypothetical scenario happening, but except by a capitalist power (the US). I don't think your response makes sense at all here.
Calling out whataboutism is perfectly acceptable when it is being used regardless of its origins.
It is in no way a logical fallacy and in fact the use of whataboutism is itself a logical fallacy.
The flaw in gorilladrum's argument is that the hypothetical example demonstrates the flaws in that specific situation and does not address problems in socialism as a whole yet they suggest it dismisses the ideology completely.
That's literally whataboutism, I criticized people using the vocabulary of "whataboutism" and then you said "but whatabout people who are doing whataboutism!"
To be clear, I dont believe whataboutism is a fallacy, but you do, so why are you doing it?
No it isn't. I am explaining why whataboutism is a fallacy itself. If you have a valid counterpoint to a claim there would be no need to engage with whataboutism.
I am not engaging in whataboutism but based on your view that it isn't fallacious Im not sure you will understand that. Not everyone is good at logical processing.
You're literally advocating for the concept of a fallacy which is basically whining "no you can't just provide context nooo that would defeat my point." Which was first used to excuse British colonial brutality and later used to defend lynching.
Whataboutism is an actual fallacy even if you din't recognize that.
If we were talking about the vast amounts of crimes the British East India company was responsible for and you chimed in with "whatabout the Dutch East India company's crimes" that would be a fallacious point because it is unrelated to the discussion and is only a diversionary tactic.
That is why whataboutism is a fallacy. It is used by people who cannot address the argument being made which you have done here.
The fact that the initial use of the term was to defray from atrocities doesn't make the use of whataboutisms logically valid.
If you mention that the soviet union used tear gas in rare instances and therefore they're authoritarian then I mention that the US frequently tear gasses protestors and BLM organizers keep showing up having shot themselves in the back of the head twice and you dont call them authoritarian that's "whataboutism" and it isnt a fallacy, it is providing context that points out hypocrisy.
You dont want to understand yourself to be a hypocrite but you don't want to change, is what it boils down to. So you do the though terminating "whataboutism" and you can ignore it.
In my Dutch/British East India Co example it is whataboutism because the purpose of brining up the Dutch East India company is to divert from the subject at hand. In your examples you ARE providing context and are not trying to change the subject so your examples are not examples of whataboutism and that is why you are not understanding what "whataboutism" is and why it is a fallacy.
If I said the USSR was authoritarian and therefore did not represent the will of the masses and you said "what about British the monarchy" and then tried to focus on that discussion then that would ge whataboutism.
Whataboutism is not about providing context through contrasting examples. It is a diversionary tactic for when you cannot address the claims made.
Im not being a hypocrite. You just don't understand what whataboutism is as you have proved with your examples which once again are not examples of whataboutism.
That's a shitty way of separating it though. It relies on knowing authorial intent which is impossible. You can project whatever you want onto the other person and based on that theyre either doing a logical fallacy or not.
And this isn't whataboutism (not that it matters). The first commenter ridiculed socialism by using a hypothetical scenario. The second commenter showed with evidence this hypothetical scenario is actually real under capitalism.
Capital successfully fought to put lead into American's blood and lungs for a century after it was known to be poison. To this day they're still fighting to keep it there.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/04/why-it-took-decades-of-blaming-parents-before-we-banned-lead-paint/275169/
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2016/09/14/report-lead-paint-makers-helped-gov-walker/90349256/
You know, it took until 2003 for Russia to remove leaded gasoline from stations. The Soviets never did it LMFAO
but nice try
EDIT: based on another commenter, OP's claim isn't even factual.
And it took the US until 1996 (after fall of USSR)? Not to mention that it was capitalism (General Motors) that spread the hoax about leaded gasoline being safe, under the guise of scientific research in 1921.
This is not the gotcha you think it is.
If it was all an evil capitalist conspiracy, why did the communists go along with it? Hmm?
It was not uncovered until much later that this scientific research was in fact a hoax to promote General Motors' business.
This is very easily verified with a web search. I would be happy to guide you to specific sources and readings as well.
So, the Soviets couldn't do their own research. Got it
You continue to dive deeper and deeper into this L. You sure you wanna do this?
Even the US, despite its heavy bias, admits how great scientific research in the USSR was.
https://scholarlycommons.law.wlu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1046&context=powellspeeches
Okay? And? The USSR was the center of a massive empire and exploited the hell out of that empire. They definitely had the resources to be the world's scientific runner up.
Did chatgpt not include this or...?
https://bpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/sites.gatech.edu/dist/a/1473/files/2020/09/sovenv.pdf
Bonus: a great example of capital at work,
Two generations of Americans.
You say that like lead paint isn't in American buildings still.
Great point, and regulation is still being fought by the real estate industry.
You're right, America did bad thing, clearly this completely overrides the wrongs of other countries
The first commenter is talking a hypothetical scenario of socialism being bad, so the second commenter (the one you responded to) responded with actual example of that same hypothetical scenario happening, but except by a capitalist power (the US). I don't think your response makes sense at all here.
Calling something "Whataboutism" infers a belief in American exceptionalism. You should question that belief.
Explain the logical flaw in this thread's exchange. Bonus: If you're going with tu quoque, explain it without putting words into anyone's mouth.
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2022/03/is-whataboutism-always-a-bad-thing
Claiming Whataboutism is a logical fallacy first used by English colonizers, dont use it
Calling out whataboutism is perfectly acceptable when it is being used regardless of its origins.
It is in no way a logical fallacy and in fact the use of whataboutism is itself a logical fallacy.
The flaw in gorilladrum's argument is that the hypothetical example demonstrates the flaws in that specific situation and does not address problems in socialism as a whole yet they suggest it dismisses the ideology completely.
People cry whataboutism when they dislike people throwing context that goes against their argument into a discussion.
People resort to whataboutism when they do not have a counterpoint.
That's literally whataboutism, I criticized people using the vocabulary of "whataboutism" and then you said "but whatabout people who are doing whataboutism!"
To be clear, I dont believe whataboutism is a fallacy, but you do, so why are you doing it?
It's funny liberals had to start calling it "Whataboutism" as the previous term made it clear they were racist.
What was the previous term?
"And you are lynching negroes"
Also a great podcast on the term Whataboutism and it's history here:
https://citationsneeded.medium.com/episode-66-whataboutism-the-medias-favorite-rhetorical-shield-against-criticism-of-us-policy-c562de690eac
No it isn't. I am explaining why whataboutism is a fallacy itself. If you have a valid counterpoint to a claim there would be no need to engage with whataboutism.
I am not engaging in whataboutism but based on your view that it isn't fallacious Im not sure you will understand that. Not everyone is good at logical processing.
I was criticizing people claiming whataboutism, you were doing "but what about people doing whataboutism!" Which is whataboutism.
Hence why we are having this conversation.
Yes we are having this because of your logical failures which you are doubling down on.
You're literally advocating for the concept of a fallacy which is basically whining "no you can't just provide context nooo that would defeat my point." Which was first used to excuse British colonial brutality and later used to defend lynching.
No I am not doing that.
Whataboutism is an actual fallacy even if you din't recognize that.
If we were talking about the vast amounts of crimes the British East India company was responsible for and you chimed in with "whatabout the Dutch East India company's crimes" that would be a fallacious point because it is unrelated to the discussion and is only a diversionary tactic.
That is why whataboutism is a fallacy. It is used by people who cannot address the argument being made which you have done here.
The fact that the initial use of the term was to defray from atrocities doesn't make the use of whataboutisms logically valid.
If you mention that the soviet union used tear gas in rare instances and therefore they're authoritarian then I mention that the US frequently tear gasses protestors and BLM organizers keep showing up having shot themselves in the back of the head twice and you dont call them authoritarian that's "whataboutism" and it isnt a fallacy, it is providing context that points out hypocrisy.
You dont want to understand yourself to be a hypocrite but you don't want to change, is what it boils down to. So you do the though terminating "whataboutism" and you can ignore it.
In my Dutch/British East India Co example it is whataboutism because the purpose of brining up the Dutch East India company is to divert from the subject at hand. In your examples you ARE providing context and are not trying to change the subject so your examples are not examples of whataboutism and that is why you are not understanding what "whataboutism" is and why it is a fallacy.
If I said the USSR was authoritarian and therefore did not represent the will of the masses and you said "what about British the monarchy" and then tried to focus on that discussion then that would ge whataboutism.
Whataboutism is not about providing context through contrasting examples. It is a diversionary tactic for when you cannot address the claims made.
Im not being a hypocrite. You just don't understand what whataboutism is as you have proved with your examples which once again are not examples of whataboutism.
That's a shitty way of separating it though. It relies on knowing authorial intent which is impossible. You can project whatever you want onto the other person and based on that theyre either doing a logical fallacy or not.
He was joking, save your whataboutism for “serious” arguments
They are not joking. You can see them continuing here: https://lemm.ee/comment/3563759
And this isn't whataboutism (not that it matters). The first commenter ridiculed socialism by using a hypothetical scenario. The second commenter showed with evidence this hypothetical scenario is actually real under capitalism.
When a liberal loses an argument they yell "whataboutism" it's their little white flag
And your point is?
Please do share an example of industrialization that somehow doesn't include unforseen negative health effects.
Go on now, we'll wait.
My point is that capital has successfully fought to put lead into American's blood and lungs for over 100 years.
Name a better duo then tankies and whatsboutism
Textbook whataboutism
What textbook?