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this post was submitted on 29 Aug 2023
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Good, normalize rejecting cops.
Bring on the down votes but my opinion is this will only make things worse. I think people should judge the police on a officer to officer basis. I work in public service and the majority of cops are really decent people who are trying to help. There are always bad seeds. Even if a cop is on a power trip if you ask them they will help you.
In my opinion the biggest problem w the police isn’t the officers it’s the training and culture. They have their hands tied w ridiculous use of force policies and almost no training. But bring on the hate and call me a fascist.
Edit: biblical service to public service. Jesus has no place in these streets.
You know every time I've had something stolen and filed a police report I have not even once had my stolen shit returned. They don't even call back after weeks to say "hey we didn't care enough to follow any leads, good luck".
And yet they take every fucking chance they can to write my as many moving violations as possible, whether or not they apply.
The police don't serve the people, never have.
That’s on the system not the individual officer.
Fuck the officer for going along with it. They can quit and find a different job that doesn't make them out to be a piece of shit like the rest of us. Nobody forces them to become a cop, but by choosing to become one, they've branded themselves as part of that fucked up system. That's on them. ACAB
Cool let’s not have cops
Considering studies show dollar-for-dollar we can effectively do what good police do by putting their budget money in other services (mental health, welfare, etc), I'm ok with having a LOT fewer cops with a lot more limited mandate.
So this way not only will petty crimes not get solved but the bigger crimes will also go unsolved.
Honestly, I'm not super married to the idea of "solving" crimes. I would rather prevent 1 crime than solve 2. The idea that solving crimes is more important than preventing them only works for the punitive model of justice, one that I do not ascribe to.
If we could cut the crime rate 90%, but the people who committed crimes went free, I'd still strongly consider it.
That's despite the fact I don't agree that big crimes wouldn't get solved. Of over 650,000 police officers, only 10,000 are detectives, who are trained and tasked with solving crimes. That's a LOT of cops that solve crimes for a living at all. They "keep peace". Sometimes you DO need a cop to keep peace, when the most important thing is the presence of mitigating force. The rest of the time, a social worker is more effective.
What do you do for work, and how much time do you spend in depressed areas? I have seen babies shaken to death mothers cutting their wrists while their children are in the next room, people placing gasoline bombs in banks around town, a guy set his ex wife’s house on fire with her in it, a guy shot in the stomach for the cash in his register, a pregnant woman stabbed in the belly 9 times by a stalker abd Countless other awful things and for these reasons I am glad cops are working. Obviously there are douche bags. But the real world is really hard and at times evil. So without police and the idea of punishment I think it would be chaotic. There has to be a better way to deliver public safety and I am on board with it but for now it’s better than nothing.
I grew up adjacent to two cities with some of the highest crime rates in the US. The one that went easier on the cops and heavier on local programs and improvements had its crime rate plummet. The one that doubled-down on policing still has a gang problem (and drug OD problem) today. The former had the higher crime rate, including a street that hit the top 10 deadliest streets in the country.
As for what I do, immaterial. But I live with emergency workers, and they are saints who put their lives at risk every day. They also don't like cops, but are afraid to say it because cops can fuck up their lives. Yes, sometimes they need cops for the direct prevention of a violent situation (see my point below), but as often the cops get in their way. They are required to obey a lawful order even when they're doing their job, and sometimes that costs a patient's life. Very often, accountability on that is more politics than justice.
How many of those didn't happen because of the cops' presence? The math (see below) says zero of them. If you could be confident that 50% defunding police and replacing them with social programs would cut the rate of those things substantially, what would your opinion be? More crime and more thugs to punish it, or less crime?
I'd like to take note that everything you said in your last reply might be appropriate if I were some punk kid saying "let's get rid of all the cops in the world" or somesuch. I'm saying let's stop funding them beyond their need and stop trusting them to do the things they are not qualified for. Of all the horrible things you've seen, police still cause more deaths than they prevent, committing 5% of homicides themselves... while police budget and saturation does not have any detectable correlation to homicide figures. That means, $1 spent on policing causes a net increase to homicide rates.
Again, that's NOT saying those figures would stay the same if we cut 90% or 95% or 100% of police funding, but they sure as hell would if we cut 30% or 40%, and if we reallocated that into programs that DO solve those problems? We have those programs. They're just underfunded by people who don't think we deserve free mental healthcare, free food, etc. EVERY $1 that goes into welfare does more to cut crimes than $1 into police.
Never in my above posts did I say the police are perfect and nothing needs to change I too have had dealings with some real shit police. Even if you cut the budget in half you are going to have a really hard time funding and finding people like social workers that want to do that job at 3am. I am all for it though if it’s possible. I am getting crushed because I said not all cops are monsters I definitely think the system needs to change.
I'm not sure you know what you're arguing. You seemed to get really defensive when I said we should reduce the police. So I explained why it is smart to reduce the police.
It's a knee-jerk reaction for people who have experienced criminal behavior to want more police and harsher sentencing. Often times it helps to shake them out of it to discuss efficacy. To ask "what if more police and harsher sentencing doesn't work, or has the opposite effect?" Ultimately, you seem to want the same thing as me - less crime, less violent crime. So why not support things that are more likely to work over things that are less likely to work?
You're not going to have a hard time finding/training social workers, and they tend to make less than half of what police officers do in most states. They actually spiked really high unemployment rates a few times, and the low demand and low wages of social work is the only thing keeping people from pivoting to that field. You are right about one thing. Social workers are actually required to be properly trained, unlike police (who often don't even know the law they're supposedly enforcing). But I guarantee if the funding showed up, the workers would as well.
There is a part 2 to that of course. There are a lot of people who would more readily spend $1b in police than $1m in social work because "poor people don't deserve anything for free". But you talked like you care about violent crimes not happening, and you aren't getting that by maintaining the current huge police spend.
I don't like the term "crushed". I expanded upon you saying "Cool let’s not have cops" with pointing out the value of changing from a police-oriented society to a solution-oriented society. Your points were:
With fewer police, crime will go unsolved, to which I pointed out that only a tiny percent of police are tasked with solving crimes and pointing out that "solving crimes" means we failed to prevent those crimes from happening
That you've seen horrible things, therefore we need to support police. To which I tried to dismantle that and show you that the police did not, and do not, prevent those horrible things from happening, including referencing (without citation I'm afraid. I was tired/lazy) studies that showed reduction in police funding does not actually increase crime rates.
I'm sure other people are giving you more harsh replies, but I'm sticking to just the facts of the situation. In most (but not all) situations, the need for police represents failure by society to do something, something they could have done cheaper without the police. The #1 such failure is insufficient welfare and safety nets, that benefit far more per-dollar to reduce crime than police ever will.
A small "response" crew dealing with volitile situations like a domestic disturbance being escalated beyond the scope of a social worker, and a smaller "combat" crew dealing with things like hostage situations and ultra-high-risk situations... that's mostly all the police need/do that could effectively protect us. Hell, you don't even need a guy with a gun to handle most common infractions like DUIs.
I was with you until about here. I've seen cops shoo away people in need rather than even deign to give directions. I would say the majority I've seen have been very unhelpful and the encounters that have been nice or cordial have been the extreme minority. It's like their default is power trip mode.
Correct.
Yea I was too broad there when I said that However in my own experience I have seen even SOME -asshole cops be helpful.
I think that part of the problem with your response, not just biblical vs public service, is that it is a bias based on your own experience.
Like the rest of us, the police are overworked, and it is reasonable to expect that they feel pressure to act and do, not to take time to reason and consider. For an office worker, they might get angry and have a short fuse. For an officer, that might have dire consequences.
What purpose do the police serve? In my youth, they helped get baby kittens down from trees. The officer with the glowing smile would hand the kitten to the little girl who needed help. The highly legible and large typeface said "Cop gave cat." Factual and warming.
This isn't the interaction I usually have and it isn't the interaction I've heard others have. Was Timmy and Suzy's Big Day wrong? Consider the difference between The Andy Griffith Show and Dragnet. It's a big difference when you know the people you are there to "Protect and Serve," but reality is considerably different for most.
On the other side of things, you have folks that have been underprivileged from the crib. Social pressures indirectly, if not sometimes directly, perpetuate their plight. It instills anger and a general distrust.
Now mix those groups together.
Grouped by association is going to be the outcome unless people recognize their biases and actively try to work outside that. It means recognizing how your experience might not be shared amongst others. That's all anyone is asking.
Your inability to see your selection bias and account for it (while claiming to do just that) is beyond staggering.
Like... you're saying the words, but then your overall takeaway proves that despite what you're saying, you have no concept of reality beyond your own lived experience and world view.
I'm not in the ACAB/Defund camp either by any means, but you should either learn to truly acknowledge your bias (and not just pay it lip service), or just fucking own it and stop pretending to have a nuanced and enlightened opinion.
Like...don't try to make yourself sound like you're speaking from any sort of well reasoned position that accounts for the limitations of personal experience and acknowledges the experience of others. Just say, "Hey, the vast majority of cops I've interacted with, I've had no problem with. Therefore I think most cops everywhere are decent people and the tiny fraction that aren't are just an unfortunate and unavoidable, but ultimately acceptable exception that is worth it in exchange for the services police forces as a whole provide for society."
Because that's literally what you're saying.
You're a white guy working and interacting with these cops in a religiously charged setting that already puts you in familiar and friendly territory with them in terms of ideology, race, and gender. These are three huge factors that are all coloring the interaction, and given the closely intertwined threads of American right wing politics with police, religion, race, and gender, every single interaction you've had with them benefits from being on their side in all the major categories that matter. With that frame of reference, you cannot possibly (at least while maintaining intellectual honesty) use your own personal experience as being at all broadly representative of that of the average person in the general public.
It's like showing up to game day in the home team's city wearing the home team's colors and singing the home team's fight song...and then the next day when you see a story about how many of those fans you met were harassing and assaulting fans of the other team, your response is, "Well I interacted with dozens of those fans and they were all really nice to me. Since I have real experience with them, that proves that they're nice people who would never do those bad things. Must have just been 1% of bad apples. But overall, there's no problem with bad fans since they were all nice to me."
Damn you sure are painting with a broad brush. I have been replying to a lot of comments so if you read this reply in another comment sorry. I agree that the police need reform and I agree that it attracts a lot of the wrong type of people. I think their training is lacking in use of force and de escalation tactics. I think they should have more than 2 hrs a year of grappling training and a lot of departments are moving in the right direction.
I am sorry you have only had dealings with asshole cops because I know a lot of really good ones. Have a great day.
Everyone knows a "good" cop. And every one of those good cops has covered up for a bad cop. Which, by default, means there are no "good" cops.
And then the corollary; Every so often, there's a good cop that has stood up to their bad cop neighbors, calling them out publicly for evidence tampering and racial profiling. And then the union kicks them out - making them a good person, but no longer a good cop.
They do their own filtering. Hence ACAB.
I agree with you there too the cops need another layer especially for behavioral or psychological calls. But that’s a training and budget issue. Also I have been to so many crisis intervention calls as a paramedic and was thankful the cops were there because they patted down the pt and they had either a gun or a knife on them. Every municipality is complaining about their budget so I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting for trained social workers thst want to respond to the shelter or nursing home at 4 am for the psych.
How many of the "good cops" turn in the bad cops? Oh none you say..... Well you might want to do a recount of good cops then.
Y'all remember when NYPD in its entirety said that old man fell during those protests a few years back?
Then videos got released.
Judging cops on a department by department basis saves paper ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
So you're saying the system is broken? Well, that sounds like something we can agree on then. The police force is broken, needs to be torn down back to its foundations and rebuilt. Every time something happens with police you always get the same response "It's just a few bad apples", conveniently leaving out the rest of that phrase "that ruin the bunch". Well, those bad apples have been left too long, and it ruined all of them. There are only two kinds of cops, the bad apples, and the ruined apples, both need to be thrown out. We need to abolish the current police and replace them with a uncorrupted version, the rot has set in too far in the existing police force, there's no salvaging it.
When did I say none?
Oh. Ok. Anyway, moving on.
It’s a typo I meant to write public service but I have been responding so much I can’t even find the comment to edit it.
Well, that's easily one of the most unfortunate typos you could have made here lmao
That's sorta the point that people generally have issues with cops dude. It's the overall culture of shielding of each other from consequences, stoking a "everyone is your enemy"/warrior mentality among officers, bad or lack of training leading to unneeded violent escalation etc.
It's been police departments dragging their heels and throwing tantrums on addressing these issues that have what caused people's dislike of them to grow.
I'll throw my support behind cops who are standing up to the bullshit.
But they are usually fired (or worse), which means the people I'm supporting... aren't cops anymore
Yea I have been saying that the entire time and getting downvoted to hell. My opinion is one of the big problems are cops don’t think of themselves as part of the community so by kicking them out of restaurants will only make them feel like less of a part of the community. I am done responding to these comments everyone seems to be a expert lawyer and city planner that has extensive experience dealing w the public.
I would say they don't feel part of the community because they are the enforcement behind alienation under capitalism. If everyone has housing, security, fair trials, etc then people wouldn't perceive them as part of an alienating force.
It's fine to have a different opinion and you shouldn't be downvoted. If you've had that experience of them it's perfectly valid. There's just a lot of cops who are secret white supremacists who get outed routinely and that's genuinely scary. Cops should get a lot more education than they do in the US.
I 100% agree I have met and delt with so many really shitty cops in my own time. Then factor in the 1% that are real monsters and I understand the way people feel. I train Jiu Jitsu with some amazing cops that are really trying to be better for their community and themselves. I am just defensive after reading all the comments.
https://sites.temple.edu/klugman/2020/07/20/do-40-of-police-families-experience-domestic-violence/
Again preaching to the choir over worked and riddled w PTSD obviously the result is domestic violence and other unsafe behaviors. I mean the 1% monsters like this fellow. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44402948
It's only 1% when you ignore the domestic violence.
1% monsters like Jenkins 40% that beat their families can and should fuck themselves. I am referring to the corruption and actively destroying the communities they work in not just home life.
"It's only 1% because I'm very specifically framing my world view in a way that I feel justified in cropping domestic abusers out of the picture of bad actors."
A good officer will have no problem respecting a bakery's no-firearms policy.
Giving them the benefit of the doubt because if you don't they will punish you isn't really giving them the benefit of the doubt, it is a backhanded acknowledgement that if they are not collectively appeased and given unwarranted grace, they will behave badly.
That's not an argument that they're not bullies, it sounds like an acknowledgement that they're bullies and it would be better to appease them
After the amadou diallo shooting the NYPD knee jerk response was to increase the trigger pull pressure of their pistols so it would be harder to pull the trigger. So instead of better training and use of force tactics they just made it harder to shoot. And that in turn makes it easier to miss and hit bystanders. A perfect example of the terrible policy to breeds bad cops.
I've walked out of a restaurant when 4 cops rolled in.