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Dilemma
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 03 Mar 2026
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I disagree quite fundamentally that not voting for the democrats is the same choice as voting for republicans...but it sounds like you're going somewhere, so sure, we can talk about it!
If you frame it this way, you have two choices:
A. vote for the democratic party; or B. not vote for the democratic party.
Same page so far.
Whatever you need to tell yourself to feel morally superior I guess.
At the end of the day the question is, if the people who didn’t vote Democrat due to Palestine would have voted, would that have been enough for the Republicans to loose? If so, you are kind of responsible for the ICE raids.
Of course the follow up question: If you care so much about Palestine, why are you choosing to not vote against the party that is very openly on Israel side in this conflict and absolutely will not do anything to pressure Netanyahu? Did you really believe Trumps claims about being the president of peace?
Which third party are you advocating?
I think maybe the question is what you think the Democrats have done to make you think they would make the situation worse for Palestine?
Like, my point is that the situation would at worst be the same with the Democrats in charge, but at least you wouldn’t have concentration caps at home.
the cages were built by Obama. biden used them. don't delude yourself.
Are you referring to that ICE had Detention facilities before Trump? Of course they did, but did Obama and Biden pack them so full of people that the conditions were near as bad? Not to mention ”Alligator Alcatraz” which is a clear escalation and seems very designed to be cruel.
Obama was the deporter in chief. trump is still trying to catch up
It’s not only about the numbers, it’s about the methods and policies. Obama didn’t send ICE in to target specific cities of political opponents. He did not try to revoke the constitutional birthright citizenship. He did not push ICE to capture and deport people without due process. Under Obama, people didn’t feel like they had to have their passports on them out of fear of getting detained because they looked foreign.
I feel like you’re arguing in bad faith now tbh.
What do you mean "of course they did"!? How is that not insane? How is that simply acceptable? Deportation is a civil process, there is absolutely no excuse for using armed goons to kidnap people at gunpoint and put them in concentration camps until their civil, non-criminal proceedings can be handled. That is fucking insane.
And YES Obama and biden packed them full. At the end of trump 1 there were 14k people in ice detention; at the end of biden there were 40k. The democrats don't have the aesthetic of cruelty that you seem to object to so much, and I admit that it offends my aesthetic sensibilities as well, but comparing Obama 2, Trump 1, and Biden...apart from the aesthetic they're all the same...actually Biden's a lot worse. Trump 2 is obviously a crazy escalation (which the Democrats enabled by playing ball with this completely insane way of talking about and treating other human beings).
thank you
You described both democrats and republicans and then moved the goalposts to hypotheticals about which genocidal party is worse.
Morally superior? Dude, I’m not the one poo-poo-ing everyone else’s voting record. It’s not what I do to feel morally superior, it’s what I do to feel moral at all. I will not support or endorse genocide. That means I will not support or endorse the democrats unless they stop support for Israel’s genocide.
I absolutely reject this idea that I’m responsible for what the republicans do. They’re fascists, and they can get fucked. So are the democrats on most issues. That’s in them. And if you take some extreme view of morality whereby you’re morally responsible for the actions of other moral agents (unless you deny that the politicians are human beings with their own agency), then fine, I am responsible by that metric and I think it’s a rounding error. It’s upsetting to you, a comfortable western (maybe white) liberal because they’ve started killing a handful of people in the street here…but they’re killing tens of thousands there so…what’s it matter? If I vote for democrats (unchanged) I’m responsible for 75,000 deaths, if do not I’m responsible for 75,003?
Anyway, that’s all bullshit. I’m not responsible for these people.
Btw your description of the republicans (very openly on Israel side in this conflict and absolutely will not do anything to pressure Netanyahu) seems to apply to the democrats too. I don’t deny the republicans are worse though, so I’ll answer the question I think you’re asking. The reason I’m “choosing not to vote against” the slightly more bad party is that it involves voting for a genocide. That’s why. That’s it. I think I’ve been clear about that. I don’t think it’s complicated or hard to understand.
Maybe the pressure and desire to win will make the democrats change…I hope so…but in either case, if the genocide is carried on it will be without my endorsement, thanks.
I guess the main disagreement here is that voting for the Democrats is somehow voting for a genocide. Why do you think that they are openly supporting a genocide? It’s not like they were involved in starting the conflict. Maybe Biden could have done more in his time in office, but if you are not responsible for the issues Republicans cause, why are the Democrats responsible for Israel’s acs?
I guess you’re right though that I am a privileged European that are not really that impacted by the state of the world yet. Though it would have been nice with continued stability in the western world instead of a breakdown of our cross continental alliance. There is also something deeply unsettling about having a probably senile vindictive old man being at the head of the worlds largest military.
If the democrats say "I will continue active military support for this genocide," what is there disagreement about when I say "voting for the democrats is voting for a genocide"?
The genocide of Palestinians is being conducted with weapons given to them by the U.S., democrat and republican alike (in all likelihood significantly more given to them by democrats, if only because they had more time). It's not that "Biden could have done more," it's that he could have not given them bombs to blow up Palestinians! He could have done less to enable genocide...ideally nothing? The democrats were and are unequivocal that the supply of arms to israel was and is a priority. They're responsible because they directly enable israel. I'm not responsible for what the democrats and republicans do because I don't do anything to support them.
And look, I'm not judging folks who vote for the democrats, we're all scared, fascism is fucked, maybe they can accept this "lesser of two evils" bullshit. I'm scared too...I also hate donald trump. I also hate ICE. I also think things were better for me and people I love under democrats (if it was better for "illegal" immigrants or palestinians, it's a matter of degree and not kind - obama and biden also used ice to unjustifiably put human beings in concentration camps - in terms of ice detention biden was much worse than Trump 1). I don't care if democratic voters acknowledge, admit, or accept that they vote for continued genocide of palestinians. They're welcome to say "I think this is the best choice I can make, even though there's lots I don't like about it." None of my business; please feel free to feel good about that. We could do with more feeling good in the world.
What I object to is their making these posts online saying I'm a bad person for not showing up to vote for the democrats; for not showing up to vote for continued genocide of Palestinians. Saying that I'm supporting fascism, that I'm the problem. Don't put that on me. The democrats could change at any time; it's their choice to make a vote for them a vote for genocide.
You're acting as though Biden was just handing Netanyahu a loaded gun unprompted. This is not the case; there were preexisting trade deals and treaties with Israel that were being honored. That's it. Democrats didn't want to slap a close ally by shutting down an agreement that was already signed. It's a shitty decision, but it's more complex than just being all-in on genocide.
(we'll leave aside for a minute the extra 18 billion that biden did hand over unprompted. The preexisting trade deals were for something on the order of 3.8 billion)
No it's not more complicated. Don't arm a genocide.
If your friend strapped on a swastika arm band and started goose-stepping around, you wouldn't slap them? Slap them! Shame them! Stop them! (I'm not sure how to work into the analogy that your friend has already killed tens of thousands of children) In the analogy i guess you had a pre-existing arrangement to give the guy some of your old guns. But now he's a genocidal maniac...you still give him the guns? Just don't instead. Let him sue you or whatever. Like...obviously.
The Leahy Law means nothing to genocide apologists.
Even someone whose mind had turned to pudding like Biden's had could tell that what netanyahu was doing was and is genocide. The Leahy law is crystal clear on the subject. Biden broke the law to sell weapons for an ongoing genocide.
They are responsible for their own actions. Playing arms dealer for a genocide is reprehensible and they never should have done it.
There's nothing unsettling to you about genocide? Or is that just because under Biden, the genocide was limited to people who you prefer genocided?
They are morally superior, you're perfectly fine with the deaths of countless Palestinians as long as it means you and yours stay comfortable
Centrists were fine with either outcome as long as no one had the option of an anti-genocide candidate.
Not voting at all means a MAGA vote has more influence than your non-vote.
Well I hope the democrats do something about that.
Maybe our non-votes will lead to a non-genocide option, and if so, great. That would be pretty awesome influence from those non-votes. If not, if the democrats simply must support genocide even if it means losing over and over and over again, at least I didn’t endorse it. That’s their choice, not mine.
What the fuck does “maga influence” matter in the face of genocide?
They tend to be the ones actively cheering for it (at least for anyone who isn't as white as they like).
I don’t care about cheering, I care about bombs that blow the bodies of children into little pieces.
Maybe you should go back to grade school math.
This is not a math question in which democrats winning is good and democrats losing is bad. And frankly, even if it were that straightforward, it still wouldn't be the same as voting for a republican, because voting republican is twice as bad on net...so maybe you need to think about your back-of-the-napkin math?
The whole point is that we do not want the Democrats, as they are, to win. We want them to change. We want someone other than genocidiers to run the country. And if they won't change to stop supporting a genocide AND they won't change to win, that's their choice, not mine.
The democrats winning, as they are, would be infinitely worse than the democrats changing.