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Dilemma
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 03 Mar 2026
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Let’s look at it this way. There are two choices. (We can talk about why that’s bad some other time.)
Presuming you are a US voter, you will be supporting one of those choices. (Not choosing, or “intentional grounding”is support for one of the choices.)
Okay? We on the same page so far?
I disagree quite fundamentally that not voting for the democrats is the same choice as voting for republicans...but it sounds like you're going somewhere, so sure, we can talk about it!
If you frame it this way, you have two choices:
A. vote for the democratic party; or B. not vote for the democratic party.
Same page so far.
Whatever you need to tell yourself to feel morally superior I guess.
At the end of the day the question is, if the people who didn’t vote Democrat due to Palestine would have voted, would that have been enough for the Republicans to loose? If so, you are kind of responsible for the ICE raids.
Of course the follow up question: If you care so much about Palestine, why are you choosing to not vote against the party that is very openly on Israel side in this conflict and absolutely will not do anything to pressure Netanyahu? Did you really believe Trumps claims about being the president of peace?
Which third party are you advocating?
I think maybe the question is what you think the Democrats have done to make you think they would make the situation worse for Palestine?
Like, my point is that the situation would at worst be the same with the Democrats in charge, but at least you wouldn’t have concentration caps at home.
the cages were built by Obama. biden used them. don't delude yourself.
Are you referring to that ICE had Detention facilities before Trump? Of course they did, but did Obama and Biden pack them so full of people that the conditions were near as bad? Not to mention ”Alligator Alcatraz” which is a clear escalation and seems very designed to be cruel.
Obama was the deporter in chief. trump is still trying to catch up
It’s not only about the numbers, it’s about the methods and policies. Obama didn’t send ICE in to target specific cities of political opponents. He did not try to revoke the constitutional birthright citizenship. He did not push ICE to capture and deport people without due process. Under Obama, people didn’t feel like they had to have their passports on them out of fear of getting detained because they looked foreign.
I feel like you’re arguing in bad faith now tbh.
What do you mean "of course they did"!? How is that not insane? How is that simply acceptable? Deportation is a civil process, there is absolutely no excuse for using armed goons to kidnap people at gunpoint and put them in concentration camps until their civil, non-criminal proceedings can be handled. That is fucking insane.
And YES Obama and biden packed them full. At the end of trump 1 there were 14k people in ice detention; at the end of biden there were 40k. The democrats don't have the aesthetic of cruelty that you seem to object to so much, and I admit that it offends my aesthetic sensibilities as well, but comparing Obama 2, Trump 1, and Biden...apart from the aesthetic they're all the same...actually Biden's a lot worse. Trump 2 is obviously a crazy escalation (which the Democrats enabled by playing ball with this completely insane way of talking about and treating other human beings).
thank you
You described both democrats and republicans and then moved the goalposts to hypotheticals about which genocidal party is worse.
Morally superior? Dude, I’m not the one poo-poo-ing everyone else’s voting record. It’s not what I do to feel morally superior, it’s what I do to feel moral at all. I will not support or endorse genocide. That means I will not support or endorse the democrats unless they stop support for Israel’s genocide.
I absolutely reject this idea that I’m responsible for what the republicans do. They’re fascists, and they can get fucked. So are the democrats on most issues. That’s in them. And if you take some extreme view of morality whereby you’re morally responsible for the actions of other moral agents (unless you deny that the politicians are human beings with their own agency), then fine, I am responsible by that metric and I think it’s a rounding error. It’s upsetting to you, a comfortable western (maybe white) liberal because they’ve started killing a handful of people in the street here…but they’re killing tens of thousands there so…what’s it matter? If I vote for democrats (unchanged) I’m responsible for 75,000 deaths, if do not I’m responsible for 75,003?
Anyway, that’s all bullshit. I’m not responsible for these people.
Btw your description of the republicans (very openly on Israel side in this conflict and absolutely will not do anything to pressure Netanyahu) seems to apply to the democrats too. I don’t deny the republicans are worse though, so I’ll answer the question I think you’re asking. The reason I’m “choosing not to vote against” the slightly more bad party is that it involves voting for a genocide. That’s why. That’s it. I think I’ve been clear about that. I don’t think it’s complicated or hard to understand.
Maybe the pressure and desire to win will make the democrats change…I hope so…but in either case, if the genocide is carried on it will be without my endorsement, thanks.
They are morally superior, you're perfectly fine with the deaths of countless Palestinians as long as it means you and yours stay comfortable
Centrists were fine with either outcome as long as no one had the option of an anti-genocide candidate.
Not voting at all means a MAGA vote has more influence than your non-vote.
Well I hope the democrats do something about that.
Maybe our non-votes will lead to a non-genocide option, and if so, great. That would be pretty awesome influence from those non-votes. If not, if the democrats simply must support genocide even if it means losing over and over and over again, at least I didn’t endorse it. That’s their choice, not mine.
What the fuck does “maga influence” matter in the face of genocide?
They tend to be the ones actively cheering for it (at least for anyone who isn't as white as they like).
I don’t care about cheering, I care about bombs that blow the bodies of children into little pieces.
Maybe you should go back to grade school math.
This is not a math question in which democrats winning is good and democrats losing is bad. And frankly, even if it were that straightforward, it still wouldn't be the same as voting for a republican, because voting republican is twice as bad on net...so maybe you need to think about your back-of-the-napkin math?
The whole point is that we do not want the Democrats, as they are, to win. We want them to change. We want someone other than genocidiers to run the country. And if they won't change to stop supporting a genocide AND they won't change to win, that's their choice, not mine.
The democrats winning, as they are, would be infinitely worse than the democrats changing.
You can stop pretending that you think it's bad.
I think the two party system is bad, but I don't want my family to die. Lemmy users said those two opinions are opposites
I think genocide is bad. People who love genocide more than anything will NEVER admit unprompted that democrats have no business supporting it.
No matter what it means for their families. Maybe if centrists has quelled their bloodlust for a few months, we wouldn't be here.
I'm scared and angry, so I want to blame as many people as I can. I blame the Democrats for supporting Israel, I blame the non voters for not voting, and I blame the people who were bad-mouthing Biden and Harris in 2024 for making more non voters. I'm blaming everyone! You're all too busy arguing with each other to stop the literal pedophile Nazi from taking over the country. I don't care how bad it was in 2024, this is worse! They're taking people off the streets, they're cancelling trans people's licences, they're bombing Iran! This is worse! THIS IS WORSE!
This is the package deal centrists forced on everyone else because they didn't want to say no to netanyahu, consequences be damned.
This was what progressives warned you would happen if you didn't stop your support for genocide. The ones of us who voted for harris correctly told you that not everyone would vote for the genocide you wanted.
None of you listened. Not fucking one. You all just screeched abuse louder.
You fucked up and got too much of the only thing you wanted.
What did the trans americans in my family do to deserve being put in a concentration camp?
Not a damn thing.
Your party only cared about netanyahu and ignored every single warning. They preferred netanyahu over your family.
The people who wanted genocide got their genocide. At home and abroad.