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this post was submitted on 17 May 2025
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Asklemmy
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Have you ever considered that the model of free market under perfect competition in neoclassical economics doesn’t actually say that the market needs to be powered by the financial profit motive, just that the firms need to maximize their own utility? It’s just that in capitalism these get conflated because it’s almost always one and the same thing. But it doesn’t necessarily have to be the case. If you have an economy composed entirely of mission-oriented nonprofit organizations for example that compulsively reinvest all their excesses and internalize all of their external cost, you can still analyze it as a free market under perfect competition, and ironically, it works even better than it does for capitalism.
I am opposed to "maximising utility" because I am a communist. Production should serve needs, not production for the sake of production.
Ok, still exploitation.
I can see that those are your political beliefs. You are welcome to have those political beliefs. OP is asking about communists, and communists do not want this, so this is rather orthogonal to the question.
I’m just curious what you think utility is and also who do you think is being exploited in economic institution that literally has to internalize all of the external cost? Also believe it or not I didn’t actually express any political beliefs here so I would appreciate it if you didn’t just assume that because I’m challenging you on your conception of things, it means that I disagree with your politics
"Utility" is not a concept I subscribe to per se, unless you just mean use-values in the same sense Marx uses them. I am responding to the concepts you are using. In a communist mode of production, production is, in the famous quote, "according to need"; in a capitalist mode of production, production is divorced from need, and we find production for the sake of production.
Marxists use the word "exploitation" differently to its colloquial use. "Exploitation", in Marx's critique of political economy, refers to the extraction of surplus-value. I'm not sure if you know what that means or not. I can explain it if you want but you can also look it up; it's a pretty basic part of Marx's critique.
I'm assuming you're not a communist because you don't seem to be familiar with communist views, and seem to be advocating for/in defence of a mode of production that is not communist. I don't know how exactly you label yourself politically but it seems based on this short conversation that we can exclude communism from the list of possibilities, meaning we disagree.
Well, since you still haven’t told me what you think the word means in like a formal, well-defined, academic sense, I can’t really tell what your objection to it is. Like at the end of the day it’s just a word, and i have never actually run into a situation where if I thought about it for five minutes, I wasn’t able to actually reconcile the academic concept of utility with Marxism. And in practice, thinking about utility and realizing the highly arbitrary nature under which utility is realized under capitalism, is one of the main things that drew me to leftist economics in the first place.
I certainly am not using it in a colloquial sense and in fact, I have been using it in the Marxist one the entire time which is why I described a market economy where literally all of the firms are compulsively required to reinvest the very surplus revenue you describe back into the firm itself. So again I’m asking you: in that situation, where is the exploitation?
And then the next important thing is to simply realize that such an economy, whatever you wanna call it (because for some reason you seem like you don’t wanna call it a market and I don’t understand why, but fine) is completely consistent with what is called a “market” in neoclassical economics, and so even if for some reason you think it’s really valuable to say that an economy stop being a market when everybody in the economy isn’t trying to mindlessly get ahead anymore, you can still analyze it as a “market” and resisting this extremely useful framework is only making your own life harder
Ok, to put more clearly, I have no definition of "utility" and therefore no objection to it. I am objecting to what is implied by the term "maximise utility"; in a communist mode of production, nothing is "maximised". The implication in that phrasing suggests to me that it refers to an intention to maximise some measurable productivity, which is not communist.
Investing surplus-value into the firm itself is exploitation... The workers still extract surplus-value from themselves. What's not to get?
I never said that such an economy is not a market. It is a market, which is why I am opposed to it.
Is that not what "utility" means? Serving needs?
The verb "maximising" suggests a measurable "utility" which can be "maximised", rather than needs which are either met or not.
When you have hundreds of millions of people in your country, it's not as black and white as that, even just logistically speaking...
I see "maximizing" in this context (describing utility) to imply doing it as well as possible.
Though I suppose, "optimizing" would be a better word to use.
Come on, it's clearly a simple description of a mode of doing things that is not "make line go up". If you need me to dumb it down for you.
We were literally getting into what individual words mean prior to my comment, I'm not sure why you suddenly have an issue with that and feel the need to "dumb it down for me".
But sure man, someone with the username "communism" must know everything there is to know about leftist thought... What was I thinking 🙄