English version below.
Hallo zusammen,
in den letzten Tagen gab es einige Anschuldigungen sowohl gegen die Moderatoren von !europe@feddit.org als auch gegen unser Adminteam Nazis oder Zionisten zu sein, vorrangig aufgrund des Umgangs mit Kritik an Israel.
Wir weisen diese Anschuldigungen hiermit ausdrücklich zurück und werden derartige Anschuldigungen nicht tolerieren. Insbesondere sind Personen die Andere derart beschuldigen, ohne dass es dafür konkrete objektive Anlässe gibt, auf feddit.org nicht willkommen. Dies ist bereits von unserer Regel zu respektvollem Umgang gedeckt, welcher hier in keinster Weise erbracht wird.
Zunächst einmal möchten wir daran erinnern, dass die Nutzung von feddit.org mit den Rechten und Gesetzen der DACH-Region vereinbar sein muss. Dies ist explizit in unseren Instanzregeln erwähnt, und beinhaltet Deutschland (D), Österreich (A), und Schweiz (CH). Die Infrastruktur von feddit.org wird von der Fediverse Foundation, einem gemeinnützigen Verein in Österreich betreut. Unser Adminteam, welches sich um die Instanzweite Moderation, Organisation, sowie Mitbetreuung der Infrastruktur von feddit.org kümmert ist in Deutschland ansässig. Da wir allgemein den deutschsprachigen Raum als primäre Zielgruppe haben versuchen wir auch entsprechend die Gesetze der Schweiz zu berücksichtigen.
Auch wenn wir nicht aktiv nach Gesetzesverstößen suchen müssen, ist es zumindest in einigen Fällen nötig nach Kenntnisnahme einzugreifen. Dies beinhaltet z.B. wenn Moderatoren oder Admins Meldungen zu Posts oder Kommentaren erhalten, aber auch wenn derartige Inhalte zufällig entdeckt werden, wenn man auf Lemmy unterwegs ist.
https://www.wko.at/internetrecht/providerhaftung
Beim „Hosting“ haftet der Diensteanbieter beschränkt, sofern der Anbieter
- keine tatsächliche Kenntnis von konkreten rechtswidrigen Tätigkeiten oder Inhalten hat und sich in Bezug auf Schadenersatzansprüche auch keiner Tatsachen oder Umstände bewusst ist, aus denen die rechtswidrige Tätigkeit oder Inhalte offensichtlich hervorgehen, und
- sobald er diese Kenntnis oder dieses Bewusstsein erlangt, zügig tätig wird, um den Zugang zu den rechtswidrigen Inhalten zu sperren oder diese zu entfernen.
Relevante Straftatbestände sind unter anderem Folgende:
Rechtliche Instrumente gegen die Verbreitung von antisemitischen oder terroristische Handlungen gutheißenden Äußerungen, des Deutschen Bundestages (Deutschland)
Auszug
- Aus 2.1.1 Strafbares Billigen von Straftaten
"Nach § 140 Nr. 2 StGB macht sich strafbar, wer bestimmte, in den §§ 140, 138 und 126 StGB aufgelistete Arten von rechtswidrigen Taten in einer Weise, die geeignet ist, den öffentlichen Frieden zu stören, öffentlich billigt. Als solche Bezugstaten kommen unter anderem in Betracht Mord(§ 211 StGB), Totschlag (§ 212 StGB), Völkermord (§ 6 VStGB), Verbrechen gegen die Menschlichkeit (§ 7 VStGB), Kriegsverbrechen (§§ 8, 9, 10, 11 oder 12 VStGB) und Aggression (§ 13 VStGB), aber auch verschiedene gegen die sexuelle Selbstbestimmung oder die persönliche Freiheit gerichtete Straftaten..."
- Aus 2.1.2 Volksverhetzung
"Gemäß § 130 Absatz 1 StGB macht sich strafbar, wer in einer Weise, die geeignet ist, den öffentlichen Frieden zu stören, 1. gegen eine nationale, rassische, religiöse oder durch ihre ethnische Herkunft bestimmte Gruppe, gegen Teile der Bevölkerung oder gegen einen Einzelnen wegen dessen Zugehörigkeit zu einer vorbezeichneten Gruppe oder zu einem Teil der Bevölkerung zum Hass aufstachelt, zu Gewalt- oder Willkürmaßnahmen auffordert oder 2. die Menschenwürde anderer dadurch angreift, dass er eine vorbezeichnete Gruppe, Teile der Bevölkerung oder einen Einzelnen wegen dessen Zugehörigkeit zu einer vorbezeichneten Gruppe oder zu einem Teil der Bevölkerung beschimpft, böswillig verächtlich macht oder verleumdet"(...)"1. einen Inhalt (§ 11 Absatz 3) verbreitet oder der Öffentlichkeit zugänglich macht oder einer Person unter achtzehn Jahren einen Inhalt (§ 11 Absatz 3) anbietet, überlässt oder zugänglich macht, der a) zum Hass gegen eine in Absatz 1 Nummer 1 bezeichnete Gruppe, gegen Teile der Bevölkerung oder gegen einen Einzelnen wegen dessen Zugehörigkeit zu einer in Absatz 1 Nummer 1 bezeichneten Gruppe oder zu einem Teil der Bevölkerung aufstachelt, b) zu Gewalt- oder Willkürmaßnahmen gegen in Buchstabe a genannte Personen oder Personenmehrheiten auffordert oder c) die Menschenwürde von in Buchstabe a genannten Personen oder Personenmehrheiten dadurch angreift, dass diese beschimpft, böswillig verächtlich gemacht oder verleumdet werden oder 2. einen in Nummer 1 Buchstabe a bis c bezeichneten Inhalt (§ 11 Absatz 3) herstellt, bezieht, liefert, vorrätig hält, anbietet, bewirbt oder es unternimmt, diesen ein- oder auszuführen, um ihn im Sinne der Nummer 1 zu verwenden oder einer anderen Person eine solche Verwendung zu ermöglichen."
- Aus 2.1.3 Völkerrechtsverbrechenbezogene Volksverhetzung
"Zum Dezember 2022 wurde der neue Straftatbestand der völkerrechtsverbrechenbezogenen Volksverhetzung in § 130 Absatz 5 StGB eingeführt. Hiernach ist es strafbar, eine Handlung der in den §§ 6 bis 12 VStGB bezeichneten Art gegen eine der in § 130 Absatz 1 Nr. 1 StGB bezeichneten Personenmehrheiten öffentlich in einer Weise zu billigen, die geeignet ist, zu Hass oder Gewalt gegen eine solche Personenmehrheit aufzustacheln und den öffentlichen Frieden zu stören..."
- Aus 2.1.4 Bildung und Unterstützung terroristischer Vereinigungen
"Nach § 129a Absatz 1 StGB macht sich wegen der Bildung terroristischer Vereinigungen strafbar, „(1) Wer eine Vereinigung (§ 129 Absatz 2) gründet, deren Zwecke oder deren Tätigkeit darauf gerichtet sind 1. Mord (§ 211) oder Totschlag (§ 212) oder Völkermord (§ 6 des Völkerstrafgesetzbuches) oder Verbrechen gegen die Menschlichkeit (§ 7 des Völkerstrafgesetzbuches) oder Kriegsverbrechen (§§ 8, 9, 10, 11 oder § 12 des Völkerstrafgesetzbuches) oder 2. Straftaten gegen die persönliche Freiheit in den Fällen des § 239a oder des § 239b(…) zu begehen, oder wer sich an einer solchen Vereinigung als Mitglied beteiligt"
- Aus 2.1.5 Verbreiten von Propagandamitteln terroristischer Organisationen und Verwenden von deren Kennzeichen
"Unter Strafe steht es schließlich auch, Propagandamittel terroristischer Organisationen zu verbreiten und deren Kennzeichen zu verwenden (§§ 86, 86a StGB)."
§ 130 Volksverhetzung (Deutschland)
Auszug
(3) ..., wer eine unter der Herrschaft des Nationalsozialismus begangene Handlung der in § 6 Abs. 1 des Völkerstrafgesetzbuches bezeichneten Art in einer Weise, die geeignet ist, den öffentlichen Frieden zu stören, öffentlich oder in einer Versammlung billigt, leugnet oder verharmlost. (4) ..., wer öffentlich oder in einer Versammlung den öffentlichen Frieden in einer die Würde der Opfer verletzenden Weise dadurch stört, dass er die nationalsozialistische Gewalt- und Willkürherrschaft billigt, verherrlicht oder rechtfertigt."
Einige weiterführende Links:
- Öffentliches Billigen oder Gutheißen von Straftaten (Deutschland)
- Hass und Hetze im Strafrecht (Deutschland)
- Leitfaden zur Verfolgung antisemitischer Straftaten
- Aktuelle Beispiele von Antisemitismus
- https://www.bundeskanzleramt.gv.at/kampagne-gegen-antisemitismus/fragen-und-antworten/antisemitismus-im-internet-moegliche-rechtliche-konsequenzen/moegliche-strafrechtliche-folgen.html (Österreich)
Wir stehen in diesem Fall vollständig hinter den Moderatoren von !europe@feddit.org, bei rechtlichen Unsicherheiten lieber zu viel als zu wenig zu entfernen.
Auslöser für die aktuelle Debatte ist u.a. dieser Post, welcher der Entfernung eines Kommentars folgte, für einen Vergleich des Nationalsozialismus mit der aktuellen Situation in Israel, was unserem Verständnis nach als Verharmlosung des Nationalsozialismus betrachtet werden kann. Derartige Aussagen können u.a. zu Haftstrafen führen. In dem Post wurde u.a. behauptet, dass die Entfernung zionistische Hintergründe hätte, eine Anschuldigung die grundsätzlich von entsprechenden Nachweisen unterstützt sein sollte, und vor welcher ausgeschlossen werden sollte, dass es alternative Erklärungen gibt.
Wir werden nicht jeden Kommentar der Ansatzweise in die Richtung geht entfernen, jedoch behalten wir uns vor Personen die unsere Instanz, Admins, Moderatoren, oder andere Nutzer ohne stichhaltige Argumente als Nazis oder Zionisten beschuldigen, insbesondere wenn dies mehr als ein vereinzelter Kommentar ist, permanent von feddit.org auszuzschließen.
Hierzu gehören auch Inhalte wie dieser Post von @Deceptichum@quokk.au, welcher kurz davor bereits aufgrund von vielfachen Aufrufen zu Gewalt und Terror von unserer Instanz gebannt wurde. Diese Person scheint zudem auch die Instanz quokk.au zu administrieren, oder zumindest gute Beziehungen zum Admin zu haben, da wir in nahem zeitlichen Zusammenhang eine Zensur auf Fediseer von quokk.au erhalten haben, in welcher wir als Zionisten und Nazis beschuldigt werden, und @Deceptichum@quokk.au in den Raum gestellt hat quokk.au von uns zu deföderieren (Archiv).
Falls diese Zensur von quokk.au nicht zeitnah zurückgenommen werden sollte werden wir quokk.au von unserer Seite für diese anhaltslosen und unwahren Anschuldigungen deföderieren. quokk.au ist eine relativ kleine Instanz mit nur wenigen lokalen Nutzern, welche versucht hat eine alternative Newscommunity aufzubauen, die nicht auf einer der "großen" Instanzen liegt. Leider scheint auch diese Community eine schlechte Alternative zu sein, wenn dies der reguläre Umgang des dortigen Admins ist.
Hello all,
in the last few days there have been some accusations against the moderators of !europe@feddit.org as well as against our admin team of being Nazis or Zionists, mainly because of the way of dealing with criticism of Israel.
We explicitly reject these accusations and will not tolerate such accusations. In particular, people who accuse others in this way without any concrete objective reason are not welcome on feddit.org. This is already covered by our rule of respectful interaction.
First of all, we would like to remind you, that the use of feddit.org must be compliant with the rights and regulations of the DACH region. This is explicitly mentioned in our instance rules, and includes Germany (D), Austria (A) and Switzerland (CH). The infrastructure of feddit.org is maintaind by the Fediverse Foundation, a non-profit association in Austria. Our Admin team, which takes care of the instance wide moderation, organization and supporting infrastructure operations, is based in Germany. Since we primarily target the German speaking coutries, we also try to comply with laws and regulations of Switzerland.
Even if we do not have to actively search for violations of the law, it is necessary to intervene after becoming aware of them. This includes, for example when moderators or admins receive messages about posts or comments, but also when such content is discovered by chance when browsing Lemmy.
https://www.wko.at/internetrecht/providerhaftung
In the case of “hosting”, the service provider has limited liability if the provider
- has no actual knowledge of specific unlawful activities or content and is not aware of any facts or circumstances with regard to claims for damages from which the unlawful activity or content is obvious, and
- as soon as it obtains this knowledge or awareness, takes swift action to block access to the illegal content or to remove it.
Relevant criminal offenses include the following:
Legal instruments against the dissemination of anti-Semitic statements or statements condoning terrorist acts of the German Parliament (German)
Excerpt, unofficial translation
Translated through deepl.com. May not be fully accurate from a legal perspective.
- From 2.1.1 Criminal condoning of criminal acts
According to Section 140 No. 2 StGB, anyone who publicly condones certain types of unlawful acts listed in Sections 140, 138 and 126 StGB in a manner that is likely to disturb the public peace is liable to prosecution. Such related offenses include murder (§ 211 StGB), manslaughter (§ 212 StGB), genocide (§ 6 VStGB), crimes against humanity (§ 7 VStGB), war crimes (§§ 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12 VStGB) and aggression (§ 13 VStGB), but also various offenses directed against sexual self-determination or personal freedom...”
- From 2.1.2 Incitement to hatred
Pursuant to Section 130(1) StGB, anyone who, in a manner likely to disturb the public peace, 1. incites hatred against a national, racial, religious or ethnic group, against parts of the population or against an individual because of their membership of a designated group or part of the population, incites violence or arbitrary measures or 2. attacks the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously denigrating or defaming a designated group, parts of the population or an individual because of their membership of a designated group or part of the population"(...)”1. distributes or makes available to the public any content (Section 11(3)) or offers, provides or makes available to a person under the age of eighteen any content (Section 11(3)) that a) incites hatred against a group referred to in subsection 1(1), against sections of the population or against an individual because of his or her membership of a group referred to in subsection 1(1) or of a section of the population, b) incites violence or arbitrary measures against persons or groups of persons referred to in letter a), or c) attacks the human dignity of persons or groups of persons referred to in letter a) by insulting, maliciously denigrating or defaming them, or 2. produces, obtains, supplies, keeps in stock, offers, advertises or undertakes to import or export content referred to in number 1 letters a to c (§ 11 paragraph 3) in order to use it in the sense of number 1 or to enable another person to make such use of it.”
- From 2.1.3 Incitement to hatred related to crimes under international law
"As of December 2022, the new criminal offense of incitement to hatred related to a crime under international law was introduced in Section 130 (5) StGB. According to this, it is a criminal offense to publicly condone an act of the type specified in Sections 6 to 12 of the German Criminal Code against one of the majorities of persons specified in Section 130 (1) No. 1 of the German Criminal Code in a manner that is likely to incite hatred or violence against such a majority of persons and to disturb public peace...”
- From 2.1.4 Formation and support of terrorist organizations
Pursuant to Section 129a(1) StGB, “(1) Whoever establishes an association (Section 129(2)) whose purposes or whose activities are directed towards 1. murder (§ 211) or manslaughter (§ 212) or genocide (§ 6 of the International Criminal Code) or crimes against humanity (§ 7 of the International Criminal Code) or war crimes (§§ 8, 9, 10, 11 or § 12 of the International Criminal Code) or 2. offenses against personal freedom in the cases of § 239a or § 239b (...), or whoever participates in such an association as a member ”
- From 2.1.5 Disseminating propaganda material of terrorist organizations and using their emblems
"Finally, it is also a punishable offence to disseminate propaganda material of terrorist organizations and to use their emblems (Sections 86, 86a StGB).”
Section 130 Incitement of masses
Excerpt, unofficial translation
Translated through deepl.com. May not be fully accurate from a legal perspective.
(3) Whoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or downplays an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the kind indicated in section 6 (1) of the Code of Crimes against International Law in a manner suited to causing a disturbance of the public peace incurs a penalty of imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or a fine.
(4) Whoever publicly or in a meeting disturbs the public peace in a manner which violates the dignity of the victims by approving of, glorifying or justifying National Socialist tyranny and arbitrary rule incurs a penalty of imprisonment for a term not exceeding three years or a fine.
Some further links, mostly in German:
- Öffentliches Billigen oder Gutheißen von Straftaten (Deutschland)
- Hass und Hetze im Strafrecht (Deutschland)
- Leitfaden zur Verfolgung antisemitischer Straftaten
- Working definition of antisemitism
- https://www.bundeskanzleramt.gv.at/kampagne-gegen-antisemitismus/fragen-und-antworten/antisemitismus-im-internet-moegliche-rechtliche-konsequenzen/moegliche-strafrechtliche-folgen.html (Österreich)
In this instance, we fully support the moderators of !europe@feddit.org to potentially remove too much rather than too little in case of legal uncertainties.
One of the triggers for the current debate is this post, which followed the removal of a comment comparing National Socialism with the current situation in Israel, which can be considered a trivialization of National Socialism. Such statements can, among other things, lead to imprisonment. Among other things, the post claimed that the removal had a Zionist motive, an accusation that should always be supported by appropriate evidence and prior to which it should be ruled out that there are alternative explanations.
We will not be removing every comment that goes even remotely in this direction, but we reserve the right to permanently ban users from feddit.org who make unfounded accusations, such as labeling our instance, admins, moderators, or other users as Nazis or Zionists, without substantial supporting arguments. This is especially the case when this is recurring behavior and not an isolated incident.
This includes content such as this post by @Deceptichum@quokk.au, who was banned from our instance shortly before that post due to multiple incitements of violence and terrorism. This person also seems to be the admin of the instance quokk.au, or at least to have good relations to the admin, since we received a censure on Fediseer from quokk.au around the same time, in which we are being accused of being Zionists and Nazis, and @Deceptichum@quokk.au has suggested to defederate quokk.au from us (archive).
If this censure by quokk.au is not withdrawn in a timely manner, we will defederate quokk.au from our side for these unsubstantiated and untrue accusations. quokk.au is a relatively small instance with only a few local users, which tried to build an alternative news community that is not on one of the “big” instances. Unfortunately, this community also seems to be a poor alternative if this is how their admin typically acts.
Are Jews people? Do you believe that people do not have the right of self determination? Is the problem that Jews are not allowed to move to Palastine? Should Jews moving to Palastine not be allowed to form a state?
I am a Jew. We are of course people. We cannot allow the Israeli regime to continue its genocide of the Palestinian people. I am not advocating for Israel’s demise. I am not advocating for the displacement or otherwise harm to come to any person, which includes Jews. Can I make it any more clear for you?
Zionism is basically that the state of Israel should exsist. So being anti Zionist fundamentally means wanting to destroy the state of Israel.
That is your opinion. Israel and Palestine both deserve to exist. The illegal settlers should return the land they stole from the Palestinians (the rightful owners of said land), and 2 sovereign states should exist. The Palestinians deserve as much freedom as the Israelis. Right now, the Israeli regime is starving children, in hopes that these children die. There is no way on this earth that someone could, in good faith, defend such evil.
Lets just use Britannica for a definition:
You believe the state of Israel should exist -> you support Zionism and are in fact a Zionist!
I just used Britannica, because I did not want to use Wikipedia or something like it, but I am pretty sure you can not find a serious definition of Zionism, which would not make you a Zionists(including Wikipedia btw). In other words, I am very certain, that it is not just my opinion, but you just not understanding what Zionism is.
Just to be clear being for the two state solution or any sort of actions of the government of Israel, very much including genocide and war crimes, is entirly possible for Zionists. Like it is possible for to be critical of every other countries government, without questioning if that country should exist.
Nope. Zionism as per your definition is about Israel being an ethno-state, not Israel existing.
National state and ethno-state are not the same thing. Switzerland for example is a national state, but not an ethno-state.
It's not a Swiss national State. Having rights in Switzerland does depend on being ethnically Swiss. Israel has and continues to disadvantage Non-Jewish Citizens within Israel and is currently genociding a non-Jewish Population within its claimed borders. The current policy of Israel's Regime is one of Ethno nationalism
Switzerland is a nation. There is clearly a Swiss identity with shared values across the country. The difference is that Switzerland has multiple ethnic groups within it. As in Italian, German and French speaking parts, which also have their own unique cultures.
Something similar is going on in the US, which has shared values of democracy, freedom and things like the flag everywhere. However there is not a thing like an American ethnicity. The country has many different cultures, but a single national identity. I know Trump, but still.
Also yes Israel is right now, an ethno nationalist country. However I do not believe that it has to be so.
From the very definition you quoted.
So, a state belonging to a specific ethnicity, or in other words an ethno-State.
Being against there being a state specifically for an ethnicity (i.e. that definition) is not the same as being against a state were people of that ethnicity are safe (or, even better, all states being safe for them and all other ethnicities - the ideal World).
A multicultural Israel were all ethnicities receive equal treatment is perfectly acceptable (a good thing even, IMHO), whilst one were constitutionally only Jews can be Nationals and others can only be "non-Jewish Israeli Citizens" (citizens, not nationals - they're separate things in Israel, per the country's own Constitution) with fewer right than Israeli Nationals (aka Jewish Israeli Citizens), is a problem.
The ethno-nationalism with ethnicity-specific rules and rights is the problem, not the existence of a nation having a Jewish majority called Israel.
A nation is not the same thing as an ethnicity. That is why you have things like the Jewish and democratic state, with the idea that Jews and other groups can live together in Israel in a country, without discrimination against Jews, nor other ethnicities.
As in the Israeli Declaration of Independence:
That was ended in 2018 with the Nation-State law, which indeed turned Israel fully into an ethno-state.
That's just parroting the cherry-picked Zionist propaganda that "Jews and other groups can live together in Israel" which conveniently leaves out the part of "with different rights depending on their ethnicity" which is exactly the problematic element.
Jews and non-Jews do not have the same rights in Israel. This comes explicit from the Constitution Of Israel which says that only a Jewish person can be an Israeli.
The way this works in practice is that only a Jewish person can be an Israeli national and in Israel citizenship is (uniquely in the World) a separate thing which does not have all the rights of "nationality" and which is broken into Jewish Israeli Citizen and Non-Jewish Israeli Citizen.
So the highest level of rights somebody who is not Jewish can have in Israel is to be a "Non-Jewish Israeli Citizen", which is a status that carries less rights than "Israeli National" or "Jewish Israeli Citizen", so for example "Non-Jewish Israeli Citizens" cannot freely go live anywhere in Israel they want: they need to obtain "approval" from certain communities before they can go live there (which, surprise surprise, often refuse that approval to people of Arab ancestry) whist "Jewish Israeli Citizens" require no such approval.
Further, any Jewish Person who walks off the plane in Tel-Aviv can request and almost instantly receive Israeli Nationality and thus have more rights than a Non-Jewish Person who has lived in Israel since their birth.
(And this is without going into the whole detail of how Palestinians who were born and lived all their lives in places like Tel-Aviv are often refused even the inferior "Non-Jewish Israeli Citizenship", thus de facto denied citizenship of the nation they were born in)
Israel is actually worse than Appartheid in South Africa were a White person couldn't just walk out the plane in Johannesburg and be given South African nationality merely for being White and people who were born there and lived there all their lives weren't refused citizenship of the country they were born in because of being Black.
Mind you, that's a beautiful statement in the Declaration Of Independence. Shame that it carries no force of Law whatsoever and the actual Constitution, the highest law of the land, explicitly sets down in Israel a different status for Jewish people than the one Non-Jewish people can have.
You do know Israel does not have an actually written constitution. It has a bunch of basic laws, but those have mostly been written decades after the practical formation of the state. That is mainly due to Israelis disagreeing about whether or not Israel should be only for Jews or not.
The statement in the declaration of independence at least includes equal rights for all races. Not the same term as ethnicity, but it comes very very close.
But I get it. I am a racist and I can say nothing to make you think otherwise, so why am I even writiting this.
You're very pointedly avoiding the elephant in the room which are the various practices of racial discrimination in Israel I listed whilst waving hands and talking about statements of intentions.
A florid statement of intentions with no force of Law means absolutely nothing in practice. At best you can conclude that those who wrote it had good intentions, though clearly not enough to give it force of Law.
Then that almost word for word parroting of phraseology I've seen deployed more than once before by Fascists when cornered in an argument is truly special (if not at all novel). Sure oh internet stranger who feels the need to preemptively deny being a racist even though not actually having been accused of it and who for unknown reasons (which are not at all related to nationalism or racism as is made obvious by the preemptive denying of an accusation of racism that never happened) endures having to educate irrational people about how Israel is a veritable paradise of interracial equality (and, no doubt, whose ongoing mass murdering and currently starving to death of millions of people of a different ethnicity next door is but a great big misunderstanding).
Meanwhile:
You are not denying that Israel separates Nationality from Citizenship and the only a Jewish Person can be an Israeli National
You are not denying that there are areas of Israel were Israeli Non-Jewish Citizens must obtain approval from the local community to live in but Israeli Nationals do not require such approval
You are not denying that thousands of Palestinians who were born and live in Tel-Aviv have been refused even just Israeli Non-Jewish Citizenship and are hence are being denied citizenship of the country they were born in and lived in all their lives?
They must all be natural elements of a veritable paradise of equality amongst races which is not at all an Appartheid state, even though those practices really look like like discriminatory treatment along racial lines.
You have been very clear, that Zionist are inherently racist and that you cornered me in your argument. In other words: I am a racist!
Ah, so you're admitting to be a Zionist.
That explains the literal parroting of the very same Israeli propaganda I had seen several times before and the use of the same "here I am the real victim being accused of racism by irrational people" discourse strategy I've seen before deployed by Fascists.
Lovely that somebody with at least 17 pages worth of Palestinian babies (one year or younger) murdered in their names (just in the first 3 months of war) has taken the trouble of coming here and deploy on us peasants a few propaganda techniques so old they must have been on Himmler's book of tricks.
It's not every day that little old me actually has Genocide Royalty right across my keyboard.
As I said. I believe a Jewish Nation State has a right to exists. Making me a Zionist. What the nation state does, is not necessarily the right thing. Genocide in Gaza as done by the fascist Netanyahu government is clearly not and exclusion towards non Jewish Israelis is also not. The West Bank also should be given back to the Palestinians. Obviously if the Jews have the right to have a nation state, so have the Palestinians.
Just to be clear here.
There is not a single case in History were a nation claiming to be for a specific ethnicity, be it at the time of their formation or having later been turned by politicians into a nation "for an ethnicity", didn't devolve at least into Appartheid, often into outright Genocide.
Meanwhile there are tons of nations were some ethnicity or other was the majority of the population without the nation actually being de jure explicitly for that ethnicity, which work fine (always imperfectly so, as human nature is what it is, but at least without state sanctioned oppression of minorities) and don't end up as Appartheid states or committing Genocide.
At the same time, claiming that "our nation is for " is the oldest Fascist and Racists trope there is (for example the KKK literally wants a "White America") and is invariably followed by ethnic violence - or even comes after it and is used to justify it - and often even Genocide, so it's at best pretty naive not to instantly be alarmed when somebody expresses desire for a nation specifically for an ethnicity, and if one strives to not be Prejudiced or Discriminatory, that reaction would be exactly the same no matter which ethnicity that nation was for.
In being for an ethnic state, no matter what the ethnicity involved, you're being for something that invariably ends up in oppression of minorities and ethnic violence, the only question being "how bad will it be?".
Supporting the formation of an ethnic nation before its creation can be entirely innocent (if very naive in light of the last century of History and demands for an ethnic nation being a very common Racist trope), still supporting it after it gets created and turns out to have been set up with a citizenship system with different rights depending on one's ethnicity - i.e. as an Apartheid state - is pretty shady, but still supporting it when it's mass murdering civilians of another ethnicity and openly stating that they will take their land, is at the extreme level of Racism and Fascism.
If you were genuinely honest and well-intended (which, frankly, your word for word repetition of well and truly disproved Israeli propaganda doesn't exactly point towards) you would have been reviewing your notion that it is at all possible to have a nation which is both specifically for an ethnicity and which treats equally and without oppressing all other ethnicities, and would be pondering instead on investing your time and energy in making the whole World (or as much of it as possible) a safe place for that ethnicity (something which, by the way, the extreme violence of the nation which self-proclaims to be for that ethnicity, is making a much harder goal and even reversing past gains).
Antisemitism has been a massive force, for basically the entire Jewish community. So any state, which is explicitly anti racism, would have and is been extraordinarily well suited to Jews. Any sort of oppression of minorities obviously and clearly leads to racist backlash. Therefore it is in the best interest of any Jewish state to be a state not just for Jews, but for all ethnicities.
That Israel unfortunately ignores this is clear as day. Otherwise there would be no occupation of any other countries land or any sort of racist law in Israel. At the same time the backlash is also obvious. Israeli Jews very reasonably would have a better life, without the missile attacks for example.
Absolutely.
That is, however, never how things turn out when a state is done for the good of a specific ethnicity, because all ethnicities have Racists, Sociopaths and all other manner of people who seek personal upside maximization with no concern for the lives and welfare of some or even any of people other than themselves, who will leverage the whole "this is meant for us" thing into ever more extreme legal and social structures for "taking the shit from other people who are not us" and it's extremely easy to build such structures within an grander power structure - the nation state - that was specifically set up for the benefit of the "us".
(Let's not forget that the "nation" differs from merely "a place" on the matter of ultimate ownership, control and power - you can have "a place" sitting below large power structure which you do not control - for example, own land in a country which you do not rule - but a "nation" means full control with nothing above it. Calls for an ethnic nation are not merely calls for a place for those of a given ethnicity, they are calls for a place controlled by those of a given ethnicity, which is why supremacists love some much the notion of a nation for their ethnicity - they don't want mere co-existence, they want domination)
If your whole messaging and power structures start dedicated to make sure a specific ethnicity has control above all others now and forever over a geographical area, it's absolutely natural that outright Racism will develop even if some of the people who started that nation had the best of intentions and the whole thing was only "merely" discriminatory to begin with.
Israel specifically, actually became full blown Racist pretty early with the Nakba, were the people previously living in that land were forcefully expelled because they were not of the "right" ethnicity with many of the controlling ethnicity very overtly and explicitly saying that such a mass expulsion was needed because Jewish People would not be able to maintain control of Israel forever given that Palestinians had more children than Jews.
If all the haughty intentions set down in the country's Declaration Of Independence were indeed serious and genuine (rather than merely "the kind of thing we're supposed to write in such an historic but legally meaningless document"), those who had such intentions were either powerless to begin with or quickly removed from power by the Racists, given how little time it took for the country to go from that to doing something like the Nakba.
It's kinda like the idea that a Dictatorship Of The Proletariat is the way to transit into a situation were there will be Equality For All - it kinda made sense to think it might be so in the 19th century before anybody tried it, but after all the times it was tried and invariably ended up with very large numbers of people killed and never ever delivering that promised outcome, one has to be either extremely naive or a heavy tribalist to still think that the Dictatorship Of The Proletariat is the way to get to an Egalitarian Utopia.
Creating a nation state explicitly with the intention of it being now and forever under the control of a specific ethnicity always leads to at the very least Apartheid as the members of that ethnicity set things up to make sure they will always be "the boss" no mater what.
Everything, from History to Social Dynamics to Human Psychology shows or indicates that ethnic nation states invariably end up in Aparteid even if that ethnicity is a majority in that land to begin with and Genocide if the land for that state is obtained by forcefully taking it away from the people who have lived there for generations but are from other ethnicities.
I summary, Israel, just like any other nation formed to be under the control of a specific ethnicity, was always fated to end up an Apartheid state because such states always end up thus and a Genocidal one because of how the land used to create it and the power over their lives was from the very start stolen from those who already lived there for generations.
Okay you are probably right that I am too naive and believe in the best in people. So I end up supporting genocide, due to ignoring bad parts of a system too much.
Germany is a nation state. Is it therefore an ethno-state? No of course not. France is a nation state. The UK is not a nation state (except if you consider its people to be the "British nation", but most people there consider themselves Scottish/English/etc).
Your arguing about ethno-nationalism is absolutely true - but it misunderstands what a nation state is.
It's the combination of being the national state for a specific ethnicity that makes it an ethno-state.
Obviously, merely being a nation state is not enough for it to be ethno (i.e. ethnically oriented) as proven by the various examples you gave.
Is that usually how "national state" is used in lexicon definitions? Seems dubious, but it could be a language barrier thing.
"National state" is just another way of saying "nation state" or "nation".
Maybe my use of "state" as a shorthand for "nation state" following the quote was confusing for some, because there are some countries (such as the US) which contain regions which they call "states".
As far as I know, in most of the World (including English-speaking countries like the UK) saying "state" is really just the same as a saying "nation state".
How does "non-jews are second class citizens" then automatically follow from it being a nation state of jews? Most nation states in Europe don't do that kind of thing (they might suppress minority languages and the like, but they don't explicitly make them second-class citizens).
The only forces in Europe who want their nation to be a "White Nation State" (the equivalent of "Jewish Nation State") are Fascists, generally Neo-Nazis.
Ethno-Fascists all want their nation to be for their ethnicity, and that's just as true for Zionists as it is for the rest.
By the way, Israel being just like most modern European nations - i.e. a nation which treats all equally independently of their ethnicity and which happens to have a majority of people from a specific ethnicity - would be absolutelly fine. It's the priviledged treatment for specific ethnicities that's the problem not the de facto ethnic makeup of a nation.
Why can't the Jewish nation state be non-fascist, the same way that e.g. the Spanish nation state isn't fascist?
First, Spain created the Spanish, not the other way around, and anybody can become Spanish after living there long enough without having to change anything about themselves.
In comparisson an ethnic nation state is created for a pre-existing ethnicity and nobody can acquire the full rights of a member of that nation without being a member of that ethnicity.
In the case of an ethnicity based mainly on a Religion, such as Judaism, it is possible to become a member of it (other kinds of ethnicity one can only become a member of by birth) by converting to that Religion but that does mean changing very important things about oneself, namelly one's Religious beliefs, plus others have to accept that your conversion was truthful and genuine.
Second, it's perfectly possible for an ethnic nation state to not be Fascist: just look at Saudi Arabia with is a nation where Muslims have rights that non-Muslims do not have and yet it's an Absolute Monarchy rather than Fascist.
In a nationalist movement it means ethno-state.
It does not have to mean it and that is certainly enough not to imply that, because somebody calls themself a Zionist, they are some sort of genocidal Jewish Nazi, as a lot of people on lemmy seem to mean by it.
Somebody calling for an ethno-state can't be a good person, no matter their ethnicity.
Edit: crazy that people are downvoting this.
in light of the shoah, a nation that protects the jews, a people that has been murdered and exterminated, is not be compared to a white supremacists who did not go through any sort of oppression or genocide.
Big difference between "Nation protecting Jews" and "Jewish National State".
That's the "they're all the same and hence all equally victims and all equally deserving of a state" take.
In other words, Racism.
There are people who are victims and those people and/or their families should be compensated, and if those people are mainly of a certain ethnicity, then the compensation if done fairly will mathematically ended up going to mainly people of that ethnicity.
What there isn't is some kind of "ethnic contagion effect" that gives the statute of victim (and hence deserving of compensation) for no reason other than the ethnicity they were born into to those who themselves or their families were never victimized.
The whole idea of ethnic victimhood is exactly the kind of thing white supremacists push forward - just go talk to the most racist of Afrikaners in South Africa and that's exactly what you get: tales of how Whites are victims.
Actual victims need to be compensated, not those merely born into a specific ethnicity into a family with no history of having been victimized.
This without even going into the part were the "compensation" for that fabled "ethnic victim status" is being extracted from people who did not victimized anybody, rather than from the people who did the victimization of members of that ethnicity.
Agains, same as the white supremacists use their claims of racial victimization to justify stealing from people who have nothing to do with any historical, real or imaginary, victimization.
White people can only tell tales. The Jews actually lived through a genocide. This is the important distinction.
Many people who are Jews, lived through a Genocide, not all people who are Jews lived through a Genocide (pretty much none of the Jews living outside Western Europe were victimized).
Members of an ethnicity were victimized by the Genocide, not the The ethnicity as whole.
This is the important distinction.
The Racism is the part were one transforms an historical and objective fact that individuals from an ethnicity were victimized into a statement that it was done to the entire ethnicity, including millions of individuals who were not even affected by it. It is the same Racism as making claims about "the character of Jews" as if people who are Jewish aren't individuals whose character is not defined by the ethnicity they belong to - both statements rely on an underlying logic that "all Jews are the same" which should be obviously identifiable as outright Racism, even for those who grew up being taught the various variants of generalized statements about entire races, including the various "Racial Victimization" fables.
PS: White non-Jewish individuals were victimized at various points in History - for example in the Mongol invasion that reached the Slavic nations - and only a Racist would grab such historical events and transform events were "bad things happened to people from a White ethnicity" into a statement that the entire ethnicity are victims, and that's Racism exactly due to logic I explained above - there are no such things as a shared ethnic character or shared rights to all members of an ethnicity to be compensated in some way for the victimization of entirely different people who share with them nothing but ethnicity.
Holy fuck I almost spat out my drink reading that, that is so verifiably untrue it is painful.
Of the around 6 million Jews murdered in the Holocaust, more than 80% were from outside of western Europe.
Approximately 3 million from Poland, 1 million from the Soviet Union, 450.000 Hungarian, 300.000 Romanian, 250.000 from the baltics, 200.000 Czechoslovakian, 100.000 from the eastern Balkans and Greece.
The biggest diaspora of Jews used to be in eastern Europe, in the 30s around 60% (around 9.5 million) of Jewish people in the world were living in Europe, around 85% of those in eastern Europe. So most of the Jewish people in that time were directly impacted by the Holocaust, and almost all Jews were affected in one way or another.
...I don't think you understand the word genocide...
? This has nothing to do with my comment?
What's your definition of zionism/anti-zionism? I think there's a disconnect here.
I think this is the problem here, the working definitions for feddit.org seem to be:
But there are different definitions, mostly centering about israeli ethnonationalism and settler-colonialism with the important inclusion in those definitions that Zionism contains a strong anti-palestinian/anti-arab sentiment and is inherently displacing. And then there is Neo-Zionism, which is a genocidal, far-right and ultranationalistic movement that wants to get rid of the Palestinians in Gaza and the West-Bank.
With the working definition of feddit.org you can absolutely be a Zionist and be pro-Palestine at the same time, with the Neo-Zionist definition, you most certainly can not.
Likewise there are definitions of anti-zionism that do not include the removal of the state of Israel, but mainly oppose the ethnonationalist and displacing/trending genocidal aspects of these other definitions of zionism.
it seems like you oppose right-wing and fascist zionists. Which is obviously right, many left-wing zionsists oppose that too.