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this post was submitted on 19 Mar 2025
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Microblog Memes
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Being called an extremist is not really the thing I'm taking issue with. The right wing has been doing that for decades, screeching "communist!" at the most ridiculous things. And depending on which particular ideals you subscribe to, being such an "extremist" is probably a good thing.
The issue I have is that instead of calling out that shitty behavior, the left has started emulating and expanding on it. In addition to calling everyone "fascist", they've started attacking the entire concept of being a centrist (and I mean actual centrist here, not just right wingers arguing in bad faith). People aren't born believing in one socioeconomic system or another, it's learned. Generally, everyone is going to start off somewhere in the center, as they become politically aware. If the only voices they ever hear is two sides screeching names at eachother, you wind up with a disengaged and disinterested voting population, which will only help the fascists.
I agree with this actually. I think your other comments were worded too vaguely, allowing differences of interpretation to cause severe disagreement.
Centrists lack a moral center. They test to see the way the wind is blowing and do that.
Why wouldn't we adopt a tactic that has proven effective?
The left tried "calling it out" for decades. Unfortunately, as the right realized, the liberals were so committed to compromise and being the "reasonable" ones that they could be as unreasonable as they want and they'd still reach across the aisle and try to compromise. When you're up against an enemy like that with no backbone, whose whole identity rests on being the "reasonable compromise," all you have to do is take the maximalist, most extreme position on every issue, and then you can let yourself be "talked down" to what you actually want. Meanwhile, you can actually promote specific ideas and a general ideology in order to influence where the electorate stands, while the other side can never full-throatedly embrace a coherent ideology and just triangulates carefully focus group tested positions.
The right has won by being beligerant, extreme, and unapologetic, and the reason they've won is because it's taken so fucking long for any sort of actual left to even begin to emerge and react to that by actually standing up to them and giving it back to them. Even so, the closest we have to a "left" in the mainstream, the Democratic party, is still overwhelmingly committed to moderation and compromise! Rather than criticizing the left for being too beligerant, the left should be criticized for not being beligerant enough! Instead "centrists" will go out and find some fringe group of online communists with no power and compare that against the extremism of the mainstream right, which currently holds majorities in every branch of the US government.
You misunderstand my position. Maybe that's on me for being too vague.
My position can be summed up as "talk softly, carry a big stick." At no point does that necessitate compromising. When dealing with online discussions, it's not just you and the person you are directly speaking to. There's other people reading. Some of those people are the frothing at the mouth right wingers, who you are never going to reach anyway, and so they are irrelevant. On the other hand, some of those people will be the young, some will be the adults who are just become politically aware. These are all people who can be persuaded with logic, and you want on your side. None of that necessitates you compromising your ideals (and not should you).
The same thing applies to when you go out protesting. The point is to get more people on your side, without simply becoming what you are fighting against. So you should be peaceful, you should be respectful, but in the interest of not compromising, you should also be armed.
I see, I understand that a bit better. Imo you need a carrot-and-stick approach, meeting belligerence with reason can come across as weakness, and if bad faith tactics are allowed to be deployed, they can win against someone committed to staying in good faith. The goal should be to have a reasonable discussion, but to do that, you gotta make sure the costs of straying from that are too high to be worth the benefit, and that can mean being rude and confrontational and throwing their tactics back in their face - but it's situational. That's what "speaking softly but carrying a big stick" means to me.
Exactly, and in my opinion, online discussions are not the place for the "unreasonable" tactics. It's not really possible for an individual to be "louder" via text, and it's not just the unreasonable person you are reaching. It's all the people who may happen across the conversation later, and you have no way of knowing just how many of those are people that may still be swayed by reason.
I don't really agree. You can be "shouted down" in text format, even if not literally. And yeah it's not about reaching the unreasonable person, but it's about not letting them win at the game they're playing. Like I said, responding to aggression with reason can come across as weakness, and for some people, they'd rather feel strong than feel reasonable. It's not really as simple as the more reasonable person wins, there's a range of different things that are going to influence who people agree with, it might be aesthetics and which side sounds more cringe, or it might be empathy, or so on. "Logos" is only one factor.