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submitted 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) by dj1936@szmer.info to c/anarchism@lemmy.dbzer0.com

David Rolfe Graeber (/ˈɡreɪbər/; February 12, 1961 – September 2, 2020) was an American anthropologist and anarchist activist. His influential work in economic anthropology, particularly his books Debt: The First 5,000 Years (2011), Bullshit Jobs (2018), and The Dawn of Everything (2021), and his leading role in the Occupy movement, earned him recognition as one of the foremost anthropologists and left-wing thinkers of his time.

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[-] ristoril_zip@lemmy.zip 24 points 1 week ago

up to what size & technological level?

[-] poVoq@slrpnk.net 23 points 1 week ago

There are historical examples with tens to hundreds of tousands of inhabitants. Those are actually quite common.

Graeber's book "The dawn of everything" has some good examples.

[-] lugal@sopuli.xyz 20 points 1 week ago

The thing is there is no tipping point. You have small size hunter gatherer groups who are egalitarian and others aren't. Same for agricultural societies and cities and on and on. There are even groups that change depending on the season. The Dawn of Everything is a very enlightening book about this topic

[-] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 19 points 1 week ago

In what way is the "technological level" dependant on a state?

From the top of my head: The Neo-Zapatistas in Chiapas show that both metrics can be answered with "quite high/a lot".

[-] ristoril_zip@lemmy.zip 6 points 1 week ago

my thought is actually that higher levels of technology begin to whittle away at the workability of more "free form" social organization.

For example, I'd argue that American Indians were living in something much closer to anarchy than anything else when the technologically vastly superior Europeans arrived with guns and absolutely demolished them.

I think anarchist societies could probably solve problems that require high technology (electricity, sewage, water distribution...), probably in ways we can't imagine. But I don't think they can solve the "higher technology oppressor" problem.

[-] poVoq@slrpnk.net 9 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

American Indians were mostly killed by the germs that the European invaders accidentally brought. In actual battles the Europeans didn't fair so well as they were usually vastly outnumbered and the Europeans that defected or got captured mostly preferred to stay with the Indians afterwards. And yes, never trust history written by the winners.

[-] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 4 points 1 week ago

For example, I'd argue that American Indians were living in something much closer to anarchy than anything else when the technologically vastly superior Europeans arrived with guns and absolutely demolished them.

I disagree. The native Americans were "technologically" quite advanced when it came to stewardship of the land. Think agriculture (food and forests), language and the like. Europeans basically enacted biological warfare on them.

[-] frezik@midwest.social 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Native American societies were quite sophisticated. Some were closer to anarchy, some weren't. A lot of what we would like to know got wiped out before any European met them; initial contact was towards the south, but disease spread northward before Europeans did. The writings we do have about their society come from Europeans, which is hardly the best source.

What we can gather from archeology is that they had cities just as big as European ones at the time, and had trade and agriculture on the same level, as well. North America was a fully anthropogenic environment--altered to be better for humans--and the common perception of "vast, untouched wilderness" comes from the fact that Europeans were visiting a century after disease had ravaged the native population.

Edit: rereading your post, what society could solve the "higher technology oppressor" problem?

[-] MothmanDelorian@lemmy.world 4 points 1 week ago

Chiapas has a lot of what it does because of Mexico. The anarchists didn’t create the sewer or power systems for example

[-] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 6 points 1 week ago

Is there a reason why anarchists couldn't build these infrastructures?

[-] MothmanDelorian@lemmy.world 8 points 1 week ago

The fact that this is one of the areas that anarchist communities historically struggle with?

[-] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 6 points 1 week ago

Can you give examples? I'm not aware of any historical precedents where these attempts failed.

[-] Rozauhtuno 2 points 1 week ago

"Sorry babe, can't have toilets. If a king or president doesn't sign this bill we can't invent plumbing" - A conversation that totally happened in every commune ever.

[-] MothmanDelorian@lemmy.world 6 points 1 week ago

Exactly, please explain how anarchists would approach the problem of redoing the entire US electrical grid (this is critical from a security perspective and would increase efficiency).

[-] poVoq@slrpnk.net 9 points 1 week ago

Thats such a silly question that shows a deep lack of understanding what anarchism actually means.

[-] MothmanDelorian@lemmy.world 6 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Why are you bothering to reply then unless your goal was to be rude to someone else? You certainly have nothing constructive to offer in your comment.

Dont bother replying. im blocking you because you clearly aren’t worth it

[-] inv3r5ion@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 1 week ago

Radicalize the workers

this post was submitted on 12 Feb 2025
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