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this post was submitted on 06 Feb 2025
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I was not complicit in getting either of them elected. My hands are clean, and so is my conscience.
You're living with the delusion of clean hands and a clean conscious and you only had to sacrifice countless numbers of people to do it.
Isn't this like shouting at the cashier because the supplier raised the prices?
Fortunately I don't live under Democracy with American Characteristics (and may be I am missing something here) but I am pretty sure there is a huge machination behind the "sacrifice countless numbers of people to do it" that has nothing to with you or the person you comment to. Seems like you are on the same side.
If I had voted for Kamala I would't even have that delusion.
"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice" Rush-Freewill
I know my quotes too.
“There is nothing I dread So much, as a Division of the Republick[sic] into two great Parties, each arranged under its Leader, and concerting Measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble Apprehension is to be dreaded as the greatest political Evil, under our Constitution.” John Adams
"The two-party system teaches you that there’s a constant battle of good versus evil, when in reality, it’s just a fight for power.” Ross Perot
“The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum.” Noam Chomsky
Want me to go on?
Indeed. But you must always remember that the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for God men to do nothing…
— Alucard, lol
this is an interesting stance. not a US citizen, but i live in a country where voting is mandatory. i assume you didnt vote?
There are not just two candidates in the US, although the establishment would prefer everyone to believe that.
right but FPTP kinda ensures third party is negligible until it becomes the 'second party' right?
edit: and also, i agree itd not youre fault, not trying to assess blame, just trying to understand the psyche of a (realistically) non-voter
Unfortunately.
So you acknowledge your part in getting Trump elected, good to know.
In a few years maybe you'll drop this delusion that you didn't elect Trump by not voting for Harris.
My part in getting Trump elected is minuscule to the part the Democratic Party played to get him electable.
You had a choice to make, either vote for one of them, assuming you're American and can vote, or be complicit with whomever was elected. You can trick yourself into believing you had no impact on the outcome, but assume what I said earlier was true, you either helped trump get elected, and therefore have blood on your hands, or you voted against trump, and have blood on your hands, but less blood.
The result would be the same no matter the candidate. Gaza was razed to the ground while the democrats were in power. And not only that, but they actively backed the Israeli government. If we allow ourselves to betray our moral principles, then we are on a downwards spiral where each candidate can say and do whatever they want, as long as the candidate next to them is a tiny bit worse.
Hence why I said you had blood on your hands no matter what. This is where harm mitigation comes in, by not voting, you agree to whoever is elected, in this case trump who wants to further ethnic cleansing. This was the last election in the US as we know it. And trump isn't a "tiny bit worse".
Who said anything about not voting? There were not just two candidates last time I checked.
I agree to whoever gets elected, because that is how democracy works. As far as I am concerned that might be the last election in the US. period. And the Democratic Party is partly to blame.
Not voting for the only viable candidate that wasn't an overt fascist is empowering fascists. The democrats aren't solely to blame those who allowed a fascist dictator to come into power share the blame
"Not voting for the only viable candidate". So between two shit candidates, we should vote for the one who smells the least like shit. Nope. That's not how democracy works. Everyone should vote for the candidate that bests represents them. I didn't say that democrats are solely to blame. I said partly.
When it's fptp yes that's the litteral outcome. Everyone SHOULD vote for the best candidate that represents them, in FPTP that's not how it works. When only one of 2 parties could get elected in the US and one of them is a fascist dictator, and the other isn't that is how it must work. When fptp is removed, and you could get a real democracy then yes. Until then the only moral option is to mitigate harm
And that literally doesn't solve anything. It just postpones the inevitable. Democracy lost the moment DNC plotted against Bernie Sanders back in 2016. What would you think would happen if we had another 4 years of Democrats? Fascism would just come 4 years later.
It would give 4 years to work towards electing more progressive people at a municipal and state level. It literally give a chance to solve something instead of being accelerationist.
Yep, we saw how much the Biden presidency helped.
It genuinely did, for many Americans, trans rights, federal funding for science. Should it have been better? Yes. Because it wasn't perfect does that mean fascism should be allowed in? No.
All these are just a smokescreen. Inequality is the real issue, and the rich got richer, while the poor got poorer.
I am not saying that fascism should be allowed in. I am just saying that people who feel left out, and who feel that society has betrayed them, they will start searching for other alternatives to our current system. Who left them out?
The GOP historically. If you want equality you don't vote for the party that is shouting out "you are lesser than me, you are my slaves"
I totally agree that the GOP is shit. Thing is that the DNC was preaching one thing and doing another, while simultaneously raising issues that were completely irrelevant to 95%+ of its base. "You can't feed your family? OK, but that trans kid who you probably never interact with at any point in your life has now rights, and I will base my whole identity around that!" Do you know how many people are transexual in the United States? Less than 1%.
You are right, if you want equality you don't vote for the GOP, but you sure as hell don't vote for the DNC either.
I'm sorry but if you can't be happy that a fellow human has human rights then there is nothing more to say. It doesn't matter that there are a small percentage of them. Because the fact of the matter is, trans rights are a sign for the rest of the country in question, human rights matter, take away trans rights, now the rest of the queer community, then POC then women are open to it. So it doesn't just affect the trans community. If you mean making human rights my identity then you're damn right I'm proud to make human rights my identity.
Of course I am happy that they have rights! I am just saying that it should be irrelevant. It shouldn't be the platform that the candidates run on. They should just give LGBTQI+ rights, and run on a more socialist platform that will raise the poor and lower the rich. But of course DNC is run by the establishment, and they have certain agendas, so that would never happen. So what's a point of contention that the two parties can easily have? LGBT rights!
It should be the case yes, but it isn't
Yep. And that's why we are sliding into fascism.
Imo, you're right for the wrong reason
Haha, we can agree to disagree. At least we seem to be on the same general team 😜
Yes I think generally we both want the world to be better, and we have different views on how to achieve that goal.
This is prime "enlightened third party voter" meme material right here.
Must be nice in that ivory tower.
And this is prime "You didn't vote for my shit candidate, therefore you are literally Hitler".
It is certainly nice to not have blood on my hands.
Oh I didn't say that.
I just find it amusing when folks claim that their conscience and hands are clean when they played a part in getting trump elected.
It was a decision telling of priorities, and sending a message, or maintaining a clear conscience, was likely deemed more important than the ramifications a trump presidency. That's why I mentioned the ivory tower - I assumed that you thought you weren't going to be too affected by a trump presidency? Either that, or you wanted to maintain a clean conscious despite that? The latter is admirable in it's own way, but i believe less likely when looking at entire populations.
"played a part in getting trump elected" this is so vague though. Because I can argue that you played a part on getting Trump elected by voting for Democrats for the past 50 years.
The lower class has been dying. It's either death by a thousand cuts or whatever Trump and his cronies are doing. The faster the death the faster the lower class will react.
So you can see that as the silver lining on Trump's election.
You CAN argue that, but could you look yourself in the mirror and say that's a good faith argument when you don't know how I voted for the last 50 years? That's a good sign that your argument is simply deflection, by making up a strawman you're hoping to avoid admitting that you had a role in getting trump elected. Your comment here indicates that you know you played a part, but I agree with you, the Democratic party put up a shit candidate and played a much larger part. My heart fell when Kamala indicated no policy changes in Palestine.
However, folks who ignored the effects of fptp voting to vote (or abstain) for the sake of their conscience do not have their hands clean of all of this. In seeking to protest a genocide, they have invited the start of a second genocide on our fellow citizens, as well as accelerated the original genocide they were protesting. These effects could've been seen from a million miles away.
It strikes me as privileged to be able to ignore the predictable real world effects of a decision, in the name of maintaining a clean conscience. Sure, maybe in a few voting cycles, the vote made a difference. I hope so, but I don't think we've ever seen it happen historically. However, generally speaking, do not boast that your hands are clean of the trump administrations actions if your decisions (or lack of) in this election made it more likely for him to be elected. They are simply are not.
You assume that the "second genocide" would not have happened under a Democratic leadership. Biden and Kamala gave Netanyahu free rein over Palestine. They placed red lines only to appease their base, and simply disregarded these lines when the Isreaeli government trampled over them. They smeared the protestors. They condemned the international courts, and they were cheering the genocidal maniac when he appeared before congress.
So no, I would never vote for this party. You might see DNC as the lesser of two evils. I just see it as plain evil, and I can't in good faith ever vote for them. As I mentioned before, they only used the rights of minorities as smokescreen, to avoid introducing any meaningful changes.
...yeah afaik there's pretty good evidence that trans folks wouldn't be culturally eliminated under the Biden administration. Do you disagree with that assumption?
And you've misunderstood me. I don't care that you voted third party. As I mentioned, in some contexts that could be viewed as admirable. I'm not trying to convince you to vote Democrat.
Just don't puff out your chest about having clean hands when, given the single most pronounced choice we have in determining government for the next cycle, you prioritized trying to maintain a clean conscience over keeping Trump out of the white house.
I agree with that assumption. The thing I believe though, is that the Democratic Party leaned too heavily on that instead of focusing on what actually matters. And they did that because that was the only platform they could run on. They wanted to protect the status quo. And as we've seen at the inauguration, that same status quo was in the room cheering for Trump.
The years ahead will be difficult for sure, but I am hopeful that what will come out of the ashes, will be something better.
I am not trying to come up on top. I was just responding to the commentator who was blaming the pro-palestine crowd for not voting for Kamala. They should have blamed the DNC instead.
Fair enough. I made a wrong assumption about where you came from and was inappropriately hostile, my apologies. Hope you have a good weekend!
A lot of these comments in this post seem insane but what it looks like is that non-principled people just can not understand principled people. The non-principled people hurt themselves (and many others) in their confusion.
I will be able to tell my grandchildren I voted directly against the horrors they will be* learning about in history class. No need for supporting arguments about how doing otherwise was a more genuine rejection of this fucked up system.
So you did not vote for the government that facilitated the genocide in Gaza, and went above and beyond to protect Netanyahu, and fund his campaign of destruction?
The horrors did not start January 20, 2025.
You were complicit in getting Trump elected the moment you didnt vote for his opponent.
Did he have only one opponent? Last time I checked there were more than two candidates.