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[-] DreamlandLividity@lemmy.world 18 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

As a foreigner not living in the US, it is amazing to me how left-right brained people in the US are.

It also requires live hearings and cross-examinations, and allows lawyers to be present at those hearings.

So now, having due process before an accusation ruins a persons life is a bad thing, because it came from Trump.

Absolutely no discourse about the policy itself, just Trump policy = bad.

[-] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 103 points 6 months ago

live... Cross examinations

Of minors in a court setting. What better way to intimidate children into not coming forward than the idea of being put into a spectacle to relive your horror.

[-] Mirshe@lemmy.world 48 points 6 months ago

Yeah, imagine putting a 13-year-old girl on the stand, in front of reporters, judges, lawyers, potentially their rapist, and definitely their parents, and having them go blow-by-blow with a lawyer who's already adversarial in nature and out to catch them in a lie, or confuse them, and likely has been doing this work for years.

No, this couldn't possibly be a good reason for kids to shut the fuck up when a teacher or another kid molests them. Being a kid is already hard enough, going through a sexual assault is hard, so let's pile a huge media spectacle (that will likely make it onto everyone at school's social media feeds) on top of all that trauma AND force them to relive it in front of everyone for the express purpose of the defense lawyer trying to catch you in a gotcha.

[-] Schadrach@lemmy.sdf.org 4 points 6 months ago

Not the structure of these things. Presuming as media has been reporting Trump has basically just tossed the Biden changes (which were largely a reinstatement of Obama-era rules and reverting the 2018 Trump changes, barring some of the ones that lawsuits were lost over) and rolled back to the 2018 version, the way it works is more like this:

  1. You have a specific person whose job is to function as a judge-analog for these hearings, and a specific person who functions as a prosecutor-analog. It's typically the Title IX coordinator and someone working under them. Under Trump rules, these are required to be different people while under Biden and Obama era rules your judge-analog and prosecutor-analog could be the same person.
  2. The accused is allowed to have a lawyer present under Trump rules, and must have a faculty assistant familiar with the process if they do not have a lawyer. Under Biden and Obama era rules it was acceptable for a school to bar the accused from having a lawyer present or any other representation.
  3. Yes, live hearings are required, but it's not what you're implying. Either party can request the hearing be done by teleconference if they don't want to be in the room for any reason. Normally it's only the accused, accuser, a lawyer or faculty assistant for the accused, prosecutor and judge analogs and possibly parents or corroborating witnesses if either party requests them present. There's no huge media spectacle like you're implying, it's normally a closed hearing.
  4. Yes, cross-examination is required, but it's also not what you are implying. The accused is not allowed to ask questions directly and any questions have to be approved by the judge-analog before they can be asked. The main difference between Biden/Obama and Trump guidelines here is that the questions are asked and answered on the spot, rather than questions regarding testimony by the accuser being submitted in writing and allowing them as long as they need to write the most effective possible answers they can think of. Testimony of the accused has always been live and subject to questioning with no real guardrails.
  5. Let's not forget that the standard for punishment in this case is at the strictest "clear and convincing" (more convincing than preponderance but less than beyond a reasonable doubt) and is often "preponderance of the evidence" (literally slightly more likely than not). The Obama/Biden guidelines were that the standard must be "preponderance".
  6. The accused is required to have timely access to what they are being accused of and what evidence will be brought, so that it is possible to formulate a defense.
  7. The accused is required to have access to the training materials used to teach faculty about these procedures and standards, so that the accused can know what to expect at all.
  8. Under Trump guidelines, you cannot punish the accused until after the a finding is arrived at. You can make changes as needed for the comfort of the accuser before any hearing, but nothing punitive (for example you can change the schedules of one or both so they don't share classes, change housing arrangements, etc but not for example suspend someone for having been accused without a hearing and finding happening).

Most of these are pretty basic fairness and due process things.

I don't think you realize what Title IX guidelines were like under Obama, some of the shit that was allowed or expected. Like the accused having no guidance or representation through the process and in some cases explicitly not being allowed to have a lawyer. Not being allowed to know what evidence was being brought against them or even necessarily exactly what they were accused of until the hearing or very shortly before. Having faculty trained using training materials (which the accused was not allowed to see) that explicitly say that women never ever lie but that men will say whatever they need to, in a system where the margin to be found liable is slightly more likely than not (note I said men and women here and not accused or accuser, because the materials in question were explicitly gendered once the guy accused in one case sued to be allowed to see them). There was a case where a guy accused a girl, and after being informed of the accusation responded by accusing him so his accusation was deemed retaliatory and shut down while hers was allowed to proceed.

[-] DreamlandLividity@lemmy.world 4 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Of minors in a court setting.

Hopefully, this is mostly about colleges. I really don't want to think that minors raping minors is a common issue in the US. ...Somehow, I am afraid to check now.

What better way to intimidate children into not coming forward than the idea of being put into a spectacle to relive your horror.

I am not saying it is ideal, but it is not an unmoderated spectacle either. There generally are protections for underage witnesses and witnesses in general even in courts, which this is not. Between that and just assuming a person is guilty, it is the lesser evil to have them testify.

In addition, the fact prosecutors repeatedly refused to prosecute for false accusations when those came to light clearly shows this policy was never done in good fate. Life destroying consequences for the accused with next to no recourse but no consequences for the accuser when they are caught lying is just ridiculous.

[-] curbstickle@lemmy.dbzer0.com 27 points 6 months ago

Hopefully, this is mostly about colleges

It is not.

Title IX rules for federally funded K-12 schools

[-] DreamlandLividity@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago

You made me think for a moment it was only about K-12 since you left out the "and colleges" part.

Anyway, it is even shittier if they forced minors to face such serious accusations without a lawyer or other adequate representation.

[-] prole 10 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Why are you here? You see people upset about Trump, and your first reaction is "these people are overreacting".

Then people explain to you why it's not an overreaction, and once you actually understand what's happening, you agree?

And yet you continue anyway?

I see you.

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[-] ayyy@sh.itjust.works 23 points 6 months ago

There’s no “hopefully” or benefit of the doubt for this guy. He has been proven to be a rapist in court.

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[-] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 15 points 6 months ago

Which would you rather have: more rapes, or more kids kicked out of school for false allegations?

If this is a hard question, then I hope you gain experiences that make it easier to decide. Learning is important.

Plus, the false allegation thing is kinda bunk. If it happens, then sue them for libel. Since there isn't a lot of that going on, I think it's less of an issue than, ya know, rape.

Anecdotally, I know four rape victims that didn't come forward. I know zero men who were falsely accused. I'm sure I'm not special in this regard.

[-] DreamlandLividity@lemmy.world 4 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Which would you rather have: more rapes, or more kids kicked out of school for false allegations?

It's a false dichotomy. There are other ways to prevent rape at schools without throwing away due process.

Plus, the false allegation thing is kinda bunk. If it happens, then sue them for libel. Since there isn't a lot of that going on, I think it's less of an issue than, ya know, rape.

Yes, because common students routinely have 10s of thousands of $ to pay for lawyers to probably not even get back the same amount.

Anecdotally, I know four rape victims that didn't come forward. I know zero men who were falsely accused. I'm sure I'm not special in this regard.

So you are saying throwing away due process did not even work to make them come forward in the first place, since this was repealed just now.

[-] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 5 points 6 months ago

If there were other ways to prevent rape, they would be there already. So you're clearly wrong.

I agree we should provide free law services to people without money so they can get justice just like the rich people. Let's do that. And we can do that without endangering young girls.

There is no due process being thrown away. These people aren't going to jail. They're being kicked out of school. A school can kick out a child for literally anything that isn't a protected class. Rape allegations seems like a pretty good reason to kick someone out, especially compared to some other reasons people have been kicked out, like protesting.

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[-] prole 9 points 6 months ago

Hopefully, this is mostly about colleges

"Hopefully"? So you don't even know the details of this, and yet you came on here to berate people who understand it more than you and are against it?

Cool.

[-] DreamlandLividity@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago

I did not look up the statistics for this specifically, because I never considered them relevant to this issue. If anything, minors would be even less able to defend themselves from accusations and need a lawyer.

[-] Whats_your_reasoning@lemmy.world 22 points 6 months ago

Did you catch this part?

Trump’s order included language to justify his decision not to utilize the traditional and protracted process to make new rules. The letter stated, “the president’s interpretation of the law governs because he alone controls and supervises subordinate officers” in the Department of Education’s Office of Civil Rights, which enforces the rules.

Where's the "due process" on the absolutely not-subtle overreach of authority that created this rule?

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[-] BrianTheeBiscuiteer@lemmy.world 17 points 6 months ago

requires live hearings

Now someone that's LGBTQ+ and just trying to fit in gets singled out.

allows lawyers to be present

Doesn't say requires here. So the rich kids get their "full" representation and as a result probably get away with abuse more often than not.

Seriously, he makes essentially no good decisions. Every now and then he throws a bone to some minority group but his driver is causing pain for the marginalized.

[-] DreamlandLividity@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Now someone that's LGBTQ+ and just trying to fit in gets singled out.

I have no idea how you came to that conclusion from live hearings.

Doesn't say requires here.

Hey, I would also prefer if it did. It's not like I believe Trump actually cares for fairness. Probably just broken clock being right twice a day. These changes happen to make it better than it was, though not perfect by any means.

So the rich kids get their "full" representation and as a result probably get away with abuse more often than not.

I think you are exaggerating a bit. Most people can scrape enough money for a lawyer when their future depends on it and expensive lawyer, while giving rich kids an advantage, does not usually decide the outcome like they do in TV shows. Trials are about finding the truth.

Seriously, he makes essentially no good decisions. Every now and then he throws a bone to some minority group but his driver is causing pain for the marginalized.

And here comes my original point. Being unable to discuss the policy on its merit rather than by who it was proposed by.

[-] jimjam5@lemmy.world 12 points 6 months ago

Trials are about finding the truth.

I don’t mean to fan the flames, but if trials were indeed about finding the truth, trump himself would already have been jailed or worse long ago. But we don’t live in such a perfect or ideal world.

My friend said it best when he brought up a point one day that “it’s scary to think that in court, it’s more about whoever can argue their case better that wins.” And I have to agree with him on that. (Not that it matters but he is a level-headed highly-educated doctor, not md but in biotech)

I get that you’re trying to be fair with your points about the accused having their rights and a life of their own that can be ruined, but try to imagine yourself in a victim’s shoes. You’re a marginalized minority, you’ve been violated, and the perpetrator(s) have more status/influence/money/litigation powers than you: how would you feel about having less protections and having to face them in a public court where public opinion is more likely than not than not to be against you?

In that instance, getting by with an affordable lawyer would be better than none, but let’s not kid ourselves. Big corporations don’t shell out millions on attorneys to lose in court, so it makes sense that more money equals better odds in court.

[-] stringere@sh.itjust.works 4 points 6 months ago

try to imagine yourself in a victim’s shoes. You’re a marginalized minority, you’ve been violated, and the perpetrator(s) have more status/influence/money/litigation powers than you

Easy, I'll just remember the time that my director told me I was not allowed to discuss salary with coworkers. That is against federal law and workplace protections.

When I called the NLRB to report it, they basically said they could file the complaint and bring charges. They were honest but evasive regarding the chances of a complaint against a company this big going anywhere and as nice as they could be in telling me without telling me that whistleblower protections would not save my job.

And I'm not even in a marginalized group.

[-] DreamlandLividity@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago

I don’t mean to fan the flames, but if trials were indeed about finding the truth, trump himself would already have been jailed or worse long ago. But we don’t live in such a perfect or ideal world

I don't disagree there but that is an extreme case rather then the common trial.

public court

It is not a public court. It is about the right to face the accuser and cross examine them (ask them questions). The only parties required to be present is the panel, the accuser, the accused and their lawyers if they have them.

so it makes sense that more money equals better odds in court.

Yeah, I admitted as much in the first post. But large corporations routinely loose to small guys with cheap lawyers. The quality of lawyers only matter when the case is close (unclear evidence). Which again isn't perfect but better than any of the alternative.

I get that you’re trying to be fair with your points about the accused having their rights and a life of their own that can be ruined, but try to imagine yourself in a victim’s shoes. You’re a marginalized minority, you’ve been violated, and the perpetrator(s) have more status/influence/money/litigation powers than you: how would you feel about having less protections and having to face them in a public court where public opinion is more likely than not than not to be against you?

Again, what is the alternative? Just fuck it, judge people based on vibes? The lives being ruined is not hypothetical, it happened multiple times.

And again, maybe I would be more sympathetic if the original Title IX included harsh penalties for false accusations to deter them. But it was the opposite. Prosecutors refused to even apply the light penalties that exist for perjury.

[-] jimjam5@lemmy.world 4 points 6 months ago

Yeah, liars should be punished. There is however irony in that statement considering the current president…

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[-] GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca 2 points 6 months ago

The quality of lawyers only matter when the case is close (unclear evidence).

Given that the single greatest hurdle to gaining convictions in rape cases are the lack of witnesses, usually limited to the accuser and the accused, I imagine a good many rape cases, Title IX or otherwise, are largely decided by the relative quality of the lawyers involved.

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[-] BrokenGlepnir@lemmy.world 7 points 6 months ago

I'm pretty sure you're already allowed a lawyer. Repeating you can have a lawyer twice doesn't add anything, unless you can show their right to a lawyer was somehow being bypassed. Do we have cases of that?

[-] DreamlandLividity@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Kinda. You only have a recognized right to a lawyer in criminal proceedings.

This right was bypassed by forcing schools to have separate hearing regarding being expelled where you not only did not have a right to a lawyer, but often not even the right to confront witnesses or examine evidence.

So the right to a fair trial was bypassed by creating a new tribunal that could not send you to prison (therefore not triggering constitutional protections), but still completely fuck up your life since now you are expelled from your school, unable to get into another one and still probably settled with student loans.

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[-] jaemo@sh.itjust.works 7 points 6 months ago

Person who hasn't read material in detail accusing other of bias CHECK.

This thread has it all!

[-] alaphic@lemmy.world 5 points 6 months ago

not sure if agent provocateur, or just stupid 🤔🤔🤔

[-] DreamlandLividity@lemmy.world 10 points 6 months ago

I mean, you make my point for me. No argument why a right to have a lawyer present and defending yourself when you are accused of a crime is a bad thing.

Just down votes and insults.

Idk if you are incapable of understanding that it is possible to agree with some of Trumps policies while understanding he is a racist fascist rapist or if you genuinely don't see that removing due process and just assuming an accused person is guilty is more Fascist than anything Trump did so far.

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