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Trump reportedly complaining about Elon in private — and hates ‘President Musk’ joke
(www.independent.co.uk)
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this post was submitted on 07 Jan 2025
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The intent is to say something that will antagonise Trump. The intent is not to demean women.
Attacking someone who shares your moral platform because you purposefully misinterpret their words to suit a separate agenda is friendly fire.
Transphobia and misogyny are not to be tolerated, do you really think that someone attacking turnip (autocorrect, I’m leaving it) online doesn’t share your views on this?
Stip trying to police speech among your allies. Focus on intent. Stop with the nonsense infighting we are at war rn.
I think you're right about all this. Just wanted to add that this joke is (a little) funny because it simultaneously points out that trump and Elon are misogynistic and kind of gleefully watches them squirm about it, since you know they are also reading it in their own social media feeds.
If someone is offended by this joke, I would agree it's kind of hypersensitive but more importantly they are missing what the joke means at all. They noticed concepts they get upset about and not really understood how the concepts are being used.
Tldr; This joke is funny because it points out these assholes' bigotry and taunts them with it. It kind of trusts the audience to see that the entirety of the joke is inherently mocking someone for being a bigot.
Frankly I think you’ve put it better than I did.
That’s exactly what the joke is about.
The punchline is: ‘they are bigots’, not: ’fuck trans people and women’.
Appreciate you.
Haha I'll take that encouragement! I appreciate you speaking up too. I have tried this kind of pushback before and it's too easy to get mobbed with accusations of being an awful person, so I tried to tread lightly to avoid a completely pointless hatefest. I think it also speaks to Lemmy and maybe my blocklist that that didn't happen here. On reddit I'm 99% sure if people read what we wrote we'd get flooded inboxes saying we're just trying to justify transphobia/misogyny/etc.
Why are trans people's feelings less important than feelings of people making jokes online?
I don't want to be arguing here either, that's why I'm politely letting folks know that these sort of jokes may alienate their allies. You don't have to do anything with that information if you don't want to! Don't engage with this at all, and feel free to let me know what material good you've done to fight for trans rights in the time saved, will you?
They are not just jokes. People posting these things are doing so specifically to antagonise the right.
I’m telling you that your concern trolling is alienating allies.
I have chosen to engage in this just like you chose to deal with the blowback when you posted it.
All I have done to “fight for trans rights” is to speak out when I can, challenge bigotry as I am challenging you right now, stand up and be counted at queer marches/events and raise a daughter who took the only trans kid in her high school to prom.
You don’t know my life and that isn’t the discussion. Stop deflecting and learn to focus on intent.
I'm also in favor of the viewpoint that the "First Lady Trump" joke was fine. Just felt the need to comment on the last point; I've had that sentiment before too, but I've also seen danger in the idea that "Because my intentions were positive, I shouldn't be criticized." That's been a defense used by bigots, too. eg, Trump throwing paper towels to disaster victims (even though he certainly didn't have to take time out of his day to throw paper towels, gee, how nice he is!)
I'd like to hope that in the past 30 days I've never said anything racist/bigoted - but I'd also acknowledge the possibility that despite my positive intentions, I may have. It's only important because these days very few people think themselves to be bigots. Think about the type of person most likely to say things like "I'm not racist!"
And they are telling you that your lack of empathy is alienating a different set of allies. Those who you seem to claim to be allied with.
I mean, this is 101 stuff.
https://www.healthline.com/health/intent-vs-impact
Listen with the goal of understanding where they’re coming from, not with the goal of defending yourself. It can help to use the active listening technique of repeating back exactly what you hear.
Center their feelings, not yours. It’s normal to feel a little prickly when someone tells you that you did something wrong, and you disagree. But take a beat and a deep breath, and know that you can talk about your feelings later.
Genuinely apologize or acknowledge the impact that your actions had on them. Steer clear of “I’m sorry if,” “I’m sorry you,” or “I’m sorry but,” as these all lack accountability and put the blame on the one who was hurt. A simple “I’m sorry for doing that, and I’ll do better next time” can go a long way.
I don't put much stock in post votes, but I don't think a majority popular comment that the person I was replying to already agreed with is, uh, getting blowback. Honestly you seem to be the most hostile one here. If you'd read any of the lovely conversations I've already had with folks here, you'd understand that I haven't blamed anyone for this joke, I am simply communicating what I have heard in the community, and I don't have any expectations of changes in behavior as a result of this.
It's not bigotry to call out jokes on the internet, btw. For someone fighting a war on behalf of us all I'd figure this would be lower priority!
I'm going to stop responding to you since you don't seem to be engaging with the intention to actually listen to minorities, ciao!
I see at least 3 people pushing back and I see you deflecting in each case. Since you seem keen to ignore those comments but mention the upvotes you got originally, it definitely does seem like those matter more to you than the reasonable points being made counter to yours.
This is false framing. You're wanting people to think that they're prioritizing some dumb joke over real lives getting impacted. Considering the number of suicides that happen amongst comedians as just one obvious sign that people use humor to cope with how fucked up life can be, I'd say humor should be higher priority than it is in society currently. And we obviously don't need to hurt people's feelings for humor to exist (already hearing you typing something about that), but if something so benign is elevated throughout society as inappropriate to say, less jokes happen, and frankly more suicides happen (and yes I also hear you typing about trans people having a higher suicide rate -- I am aware).
Just as a personal example, I've had pretty bad depression for years now but recently started rewatching Malcolm in the Middle again. It's felt so good to laugh and makes a big difference in my mental health. Due to its age, the show is littered with jokes you could pick apart entirely and remove every sliver of joy from if you wanted to. But since the show makes it incredibly obvious that there's a good heart behind all those jokes, I chose joy in this case. Joy isn't something to belittle as just some stupid joke if the criticism levelled actually can prevent countless other (mostly) harmless jokes.
Isn't that what you're doing by telling trans people to put up or shut up when 'allies' use transphobic/misogynist insults against 'enemies'
How are we supposed to know that we won't just become the next acceptable target for misogynistic/transphobic abuse if/when we end up on liberals 'enemies' list?
Trump and Elon are buffoons, it's not hard to mock them without tolerating misogyny to do so.
It isn’t tolerating misogyny, it’s pointing out misogyny and ridiculing misogynists.
It’s OK if you don’t like how that’s being done, and it’s OK if you can’t understand the nuance but policing my speech unchallenged is not what is going to happen.
I think I got the nuance behind 'bigoted man I disagree with is actually a woman because women amirite?'.
I'm trans, and like actually hate these people, they deserve ridicule. However, if I'm willing to tolerate bigotry on my behalf towards people that are in some out-group, there's no guarantee that some day I won't be among that out-group and subsequently targeted by that type of bigotry. Do you understand the issue I'm raising?
I can't tolerate people misgendering Caitlen Jenner or Blair white because while they suck, it only contributes to an environment where that type of insult is then considered acceptable.
You're the type to get weirdly sexual and homophobic when it's people you disagree with. Not really interested in what you have to say tbh.
you don't seem like you handle people disagreeing with you well. you've already called me schizophrenic because I had an issue with your history of homophobic comments, only to be like "well they're people I don't like politiclly so it's okay"
that was my original point, so thank you for demonstrating the behavior I guess
Clicking on your moderation history is not stalking, it's literally right in the drop-down next to block user for me, and that was all right the top of your history.
spoiler
All I said was that I don't like seeing misogynist, homophobic transphobic, or sexual insults being used against even my enemies, because that's not behavior I would want to condone in my allies, or in spaces I participate in.
You seem to have an enormous chip on your shoulder, judging from your response to a trans woman giving her opinion on the matter. Your response was saying I'm mentally ill and a stalker for pointing out your past homophobic and aggressive behavior that's publicly visible and extremely obvious.
If making up conspiracies helps you cope with your life that's certainly an approach people take.
I spoke up up to say I didn't like seeing 'allies' using bigoted language and you immediately got defensive which is a huge tell.
You just seem like a centrist extremist looking for an excuse to be homophobic.
Idk what your beef is with that poster but if you provide some background maybe I'll understand what you're referencing.
If bigoted language is common in the spaces you frequent that says a lot about what your lived experience has been.
I get the feeling that you're already there, you just prefer a different aesthetic from the red hats.
Reacting defensively to earnest criticism speaks volumes, I'm afraid.
Usually when it's pointed out to me that I'm reacting defensively I take a moment to think about why that is, maybe you should do the same.
so why is sucking dick a thing requiring a secret relationship?
also it seems like a specifically gendered expression, why wouldn't you say "eating Russian pussy" if you wanted to imply that there's some relationship
It just scans as homophobic, just as calling trump/elon women as an insult reads as misogynistic.
Are you trying to say that when you're a misogynist you tend to use misogynistic insults? Because that tracks.
byeeeee
I still don't see how your words aren't bigotry just because you're convinced you have a suitable target.
You never really answered my question directly, why does sucking dick imply a secret/subservient relationship?
quoting you:
you were the one who said that the expression "sucking dick" means "sucking up to someone else"- do people often "suck up to" their subordinates or their superiors?
Nope.
It goes like this: ‘bigoted man is bigoted because this will aggravate his orange tits. If bigoted man was not bigoted it would not be possible to rip on him like this.’
Put another way: ‘I am a bigot, said John.’
If that doesn’t clarify it then I’m out of patience to explain further.
I made the mistake of trying to converse with that user. Their history doesn't indicate they are a full time troll, but on these kinds of topics, they certainly are. And I remember them also defending infamous banned troll UniversalMonk on multiple occasions, if you remember that guy.
That's cool I don't need any more explanations.
That’s cool I don’t ~~need~~ hear any ~~more~~ explanations.
Edit: worth noting that nowhere in this thread does this user talk about how language they don't like feels to them. They just repeatedly state what it "is" condescendingly. And then they intentionally troll people pushing back on that. Funny enough, they accidentally confirmed they are trolling by admitting they are an ESL but then insisting on what expressions mean and sealioning me about them.