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this post was submitted on 18 Jul 2023
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I've been trying to degender my language. I grew up saying "thank you (or excuse me, yes/no, etc) sir/ma'am" and then being in customer facing positions for years just absolutely cemented that in my mind to the point where it is an absolute knee jerk reaction to make assumptions about the gender of others. It's an awful habit and makes me cringe every time I do it. I try to either just avoid the gender identifier ("thank you.") which to my mind sounds impolite, or use gender neutral terms like "friend" which REALLY sound impolite. It's tough but I'm working on it! The real trouble is getting my brain to stop gendering others and as a quite elderly millenial who actually identifies as Agender it is an annoying and difficult task. I'm envious of younger folks who won't grow up with these kinds of ideas as a default.
You know we've gone too far when people feel bad for saying thank you sir/mam...
At one point, people thought we had gone too far because they weren't allowed to say the N word anymore.
Sir and Ma'am are only respectful if the person hears it as such.
Nah, that sounds like more your thing. I'm going to do what makes those around me happy and comfortable.
Are they wrong about public opinion of the N word though? This entire thread is a collection of words/phrases/actions that people (and often society at large) used to think were completely harmless but gradually realized carried some negative connotation--or were even downright slurs--to certain people, and committed to stop using.
This is not necessarily a dig on you personally, but if you think that people proactively being considerate of fellow humans is a bad thing or "going too far", maybe that's a you problem.
That’s fine, but also the vast majority of people are content being called by their assumed pronouns. I’m all for inclusion but I’m not going to erase two perfectly innocuous words from my vocabulary because one person might be sensitive about it.
Use your best judgement, if somebody corrects you then apologize and use their preferred pronoun moving forward. If that’s not good enough, that’s their problem.
Eh, it costs me nothing and actually helps me with a personal goal I have to not make assumptions about someone's identity based on what I perceive. As someone who has been misgendered many times in the past, it truly hurts, and while that may be a personal problem, I don't really love going around potentially causing others to feel hurt in any way.
That’s fair and I appreciate your insight here. I imagine you “know” that those who misgendered you didn’t do so intentionally or intend on being hurtful, but I’m sure it still hurts anyway. I’m sorry for that.
I suppose in the real world, using my best judgement means that if I’m unsure, I skip the gendered pronoun. It still requires an assumption based on perception, admittedly not ideal. But I also view sir and ma’am as a traditional sign of respect and I’ve used them liberally my whole life. I usually give an enthusiastic yes sir or ma’am even at the drive through.
It’s obviously a nuanced discussion that we’re not going to solve here and today, but again I appreciate your non-aggressive take, a perspective I didn’t have before.
Thanks for engaging in productive discussion! And yes, I fully realize that in almost all but very specific and relatively easily identifiable cases, misgendering is something that happens accidentally and is not intended to be injurious. But for anyone who does not identify with their gender assigned at birth, it really does feel super bad.
I love that you also seem to have the same regard for social politness as I do. I feel like as someone who wants to use terms of respect to make others feel confident and comfortable, the possibility that I may accidentally do the very opposite of that is something that makes me want to try and better the way I interact.
Fuck that. NO ONE LEAVES UNTIL WE GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS THING!
Edit: /s just in case
Not all people identify with the two-gender labels. For instance, I'm genderqueer, and I'd feel very dysphoric if someone told me "ma'am."
I'm a cis lady and I don't like being called ma'am. It feels so forced and phony.
I mentioned it to my mom the first time I got "ma'am"ed. I'm a cis woman and I hated it! Mom, who looks much more ma'am-worthy than I, said the same thing. I don't know if anyone wants to be a "ma'am."
I don't care one way or the other as long as it's an attempt at politeness. It's fine.
I agree.
This world is going to hell in a wokebasket if people start thinking about what comes out their fucking mouth.
/s, cos you never fuckin know nowadays.
They don't feel bad for using those terms, they feel bad about using them on someone incorrectly. There's nuance here that is lost on those who struggle to grasp the difference and phrasing things as if we're being forced to stop using them or "delete them from our vocabulary" is counterproductive.
I don't think it is univerally okay to make assumptions about someone's personal identity before you know it. I am happy calling someone sir or ma'am after I know their gender identity. But in a casual interaction between strangers, there is no need for it at all and it is just an ingrained and outdated social convention that I personally am striving to move past.
Go with "Thank you, customer"
Really push the dystopia with dead eyes and big smile as you do it.
Very fortunately, I now work from home in a job with basically zero interaction with anyone at all (it's great) so this mostly applies to casual social interactions at say, a grocery store. I have to say though, using your suggestion in this context is actually hilarious and would be super gratifying.
What has the world come to that people are so happy to be hermits? How do you find joy in your life sequestered from society? Not hating, genuine question.
Not the guy you replied to but I'm fully WFH and I wouldn't trade it for anything. The amount of social anxiety I used to have working in an office was almost unbearable. I'm not sequestered from society or anything like that, I have a pretty active social life outside of work, but being forced to interact with co-workers in an office when I can do the same job from home just sucks
I spend 9-12 hours a day working on a computer listening to audio on headphones. I am so glad my workplace decided to go fully and permanently remote. I can't imagine a situation where me being in an office would improve my work performance in any way.
However, my partner hates working from home and desperately missed having an office to go to during the pandemic. His company closed their office as well, so now he just meets up with his boss a few times a week to work at a cafe or something. I wouldn't mind that but I have a ton of peripherals I need to use in addition to my computer and the couple times I've tried it has been more irritating than anything else to lug everything around and spend 15 minutes setting everything up.
I mean, I don't think people being happy in self directed work from a comfortable environment free from the scrutiny and drama of coworkers really says anything at all about "what has the world come to." If I want to socialize, I do that outside of my work hours, and my work is far more productive and enjoyable without the constant interference and distraction of either coworkers or the general public. My experience with my past workplaces are my own, and I am far happier and have a much better quality of life without forcible socialization with people I would under no other circumstances outside of prison or a mass transport breakdown spend most of my waking hours around.
I am genuinely quite happy with my life. I have friends, family, a longterm partner, pets, a career that I love (that I believe does a genuine service to my fellow humans), money in the bank, and rewarding hobbies. I highly value my free time and like to use it how I see fit, instead of trying to wedge myself into social situations I don't find enjoyable or fulfilling. If that makes me a hermit, I am totally fine with that.
(Also just saying you may find a higher than average number of people who are introverted or value alone time posting on a relatively niche social media site with barriers to entry that require at least some level of computer savvy).
I see. I didn't read it that way.
In my last job (which was on a team of all cis women), people shared their pronouns...both singular AND plural (i.e., how they wanted to be referred to in a group). Which is pretty bizarre. Like, what if one person's plural pronoun is "folks" and another's is "friends"...then which term are you supposed to use?
And I came to hate saying "friends" because we weren't friends. It was a soul-sucking corporate gig, and I wasn't part of their mom squad...I never saw them outside of work, and I was always the last to learn about team changes, so let's be real: we aren't friends, we're coworkers. It got creepy being expected to smile and address everyone as "friends"!
FWIW, I have nothing against folks or guys or y'all ;)
This is what bugs me about chosen pronouns, it's like a right someone has to tell other people how to use language, that can get complicated and needs memorization. People should have leeway on the words they use, even if they shouldn't be making unwanted assertions about other peoples gender. Would be better to just have a set of genderless pronouns that are always polite/safe to use.
I resonate deeply with this. I can't be bothered to memorise all these pronouns. I'd of course do it for people I am close to, though.
I maintain that "they/them" is that always-safe genderless pronoun type.
I do use singular they a lot for lack of alternatives, but it can get pretty awkward when both an individual and a group of people are part of the context of your statement. Do you accept the ambiguity and that people may misinterpret you? Spend a lot of time structuring your words to fight against that ambiguity? Overuse the word 'person' instead of using pronouns? I think it would be a strict improvement to the language if we just made 'xe' or something a real word.
Agreed.
I'm not trying to sound insensitive (I never come across anything like that in real life), but is it really that bad to assume someone's gender? You literally don't know anything about that person, or how they identify. Do people get offended when you missgender them if it's the first time you've met them?
I could understand someone being offended if you do missgender them every time, but what if it's the first time you're meeting? Just say sorry and then say the correct pronoun.
First of all, I barely gender people (I've always been like this, saying friend, partner, mate...) so I'm really surprised by this new trend. Maybe I'm getting old lol.
It's not so much about offending someone (and yes, people absolutely do sometimes get aggressively upset about it) and more about attempting to change my own mental habits. I believe like race, sexual orientation, and politics, gender is a personal topic that doesn't really need to enter into a casual, never to be repeated interaction between two people. You don't say "excuse me, old person," based on your perceptions of another's appearance. Why is gender any different? It certainly isn't an objective concept or one that can be readily or factually assumed. It's outmoded and unnecessary.
Also, as I commented earlier, if I am using what I mean to be a term of respect to make someone else feel confident and comfortable, and through my language I risk doing the opposite, why would I want to do that if it's something I can personally change?
I'm not British but I just say "cheers mate" to everyone. Works for me.
“Thank you friend” is impolite? Maybe it’s informal, but I think that’s a great solution to the problem. I can’t imagine anyone having a problem with that except maybe an aggro asshole.
Maybe I've just spent too long arguing with aholes on the internet but to me calling someone "friend" comes across as very sarcastic and condescending
Edit, it's like calling someone you don't know "buddy" or "pal"
I'm not your friend, pal!
Listen here, buddy!
I could see it online, yeah. If you use a friendly tone in person it wouldn’t be a problem.
Fair enough! I do use it pretty frequently. I would really like it if someone said that to me, so maybe it isn't as impolite as I perceive it. Thanks.
I like the Battlestar Galactica solution to this: sir should not be gendered. It should just be a term of respect and maybe authority. It's gendered more out of convention than definition. I don't know how we reach that point, but that's my reference. I think it basically has to start with the military. They should stop using ma'am for women and use sir.
I really like this take and love it when I come across it in media.
I feel like we made many terms much more gendered than they were before. If I'm hanging with a mixed group and I say "hey guys" towards the whole group "guys" is being used as a genderless, inclusive term.
I personally feel that in everyday casual conversation we should focus on the intent of what's spoken and not get into the minutia of the terminology. Sir/ma'am are terms of respect and the underlying message behind them is respect. If a person accidentally misgendered someone while using them, it doesn't negate the intended respect.
Can we just create some genderless pronouns instead of asking everyone you meet for theirs? I'd be down with that.
I mean, isn't that exactly what you just used? They/them are genderless pronouns that can be used for both plural and singular subjects. If you don't know someone's gender, it's already what people default to.
Like, "They're sending someone over at 3, but I don't know when they'll get here." Or, "That person? Nah, I don't know them." Or, "Whose is this? Is it yours? Is it theirs?"
When people first started yelling about having to be polite about genders I always found it odd how they'd angrily refuse to use the neutral pronouns already in English, while using those same pronouns in their own sentences without really realizing it.
The only problem I have with, "They" is that it requires context to distinguish the plural form and the singular. We need a dedicated, genderless word for singular third-person.
Does that really matter? If you're talking to someone the context is obvious, same if you're talking about someone. The cases where not knowing whether they're a group or an individual is a problem is basically nonexistent.
Interesting that this sir/ma'am thing is very location-dependent. I've been living in Scotland more more than a decade now and I probably heard someone address me as "sir" a grand total of twice. I remember because it always felt so jarring, like why was this random shop assistant speaking to me so subserviently O.o
But I heard in some places (USA?) it's very commonplace.