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(lemmy.ml)
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this post was submitted on 14 Oct 2024
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Nobody did.
Saying liberals aren't left wing is gatekeeping the term. Imagine saying that I'm not left leaning enough. Wtf is that supposed mean!
Leftism is to go against the current class order, Liberalism supports it. Leftism isn't an arbitrary vibe, if you're pro-Capitalism then you aren't against Capitalism!
Leftism isn't to go against capitalism though. Leftism broadly refers to the ideology that supports socioeconomic equality. If I'm to remind you of the origin of the terms "left" and "right" as it relates to politics, the terms right and left refer to political affiliations originating early in the French Revolutionary era. "The Left" implied support for republicanism - becoming a republic, and not American republicanism, secularism and civil liberties.
Political scientists and other analysts usually regard the left as including anarchists, communists, socialists, democratic socialists, social democrats, left-libertarians, progressives, and social liberals. Movements for racial equality, as well as trade unionism, have also been associated with the left. Source
The sort of leftism you Marxist-Leninists advocate for is radical leftism. Social liberalism is still leftist.
Then by your own definition Liberalism is right wing! This is ridiculous.
Yes, I agree. They don't, they think liberalism is left wing.
You think communism is the only way to advocate for socioeconomic equality?
Edit: This is a dumb question of course you do. Read the source on political scientists agreeing that social liberalism is leftist. Go ahead and disagree if you want
Nope, but advocating for "socioeconomic equality" by advocating for Capitalism, a system based on private accumulation and inequality, is hilariously wrong.
You're just a closed minded marxist. It's ok.
Please explain how advocacy for Capitalism is adbocacy for Socioeconomic equality. Please. I'm a Marxist, you're darn right, but I acknowledge that there are other left positions like Anarchism and Syndicalism. Liberalism is right-wing.
Bro what!! Liberalism is literally considered a left wing ideology by political scientists. It doesn't matter what you think. You didn't create this stuff.
Social democrats and social liberals are all left wing because these groups advocate for more government intervention which right wingers vehemently oppose. Do you think that the political spectrum only involves markets?
Government intervention isn't what separates left and right. The Nazis were far-right but had lots of government intervention. According to yourself, left and right is about socioeconomic equality. This includes Syndicalism, Anarchism, and Socialism/Communism, all with varying degrees of government.
Explain how Capitalism is Left Wing.
Of course, that's not the only thing lmao. You're being intentionally obtuse. Nazis deliberately put power into the hands of the government as an oppressive tactic. Not to protect the working class.
Also, i said left wing broadly speaking involves socioeconomic equality. There are other things like support for social justice and human rights, anti-imperialism and internationalism, desire for systemic change, secularism, opposition to traditional hierarchies, etc. Are you then going to tell me that these characteristics i have outlined are right wing? Or that they are only achievable by being Marxist or Anarchist?
You and every other Marxist in here is a radical leftist. Why can't you accept that fact?
Social Justice and Human Rights are just generally good things, grouping them in with left and right just obscures your actual political stances.
Anti-Imperialism must be socialist in nature, at scale. There can be national liberatory movements from Capitalists against international Capitalists, yes, but anti-imperialism cannot be liberal within the Imperial Core.
Secularism isn't really political, and desire for systemic change is vague enough to not be a point.
Opposition to traditional hierarchies cannot be found within Capitalism.
There you go, answered.
๐
Friend, take the straight point as it's delivered: capitalism is a system of oppression, and "liberals" support capitalism.
Leftists call those saying "this system of oppression would be perfect, with only some changes" liberals.
I understand the point you're trying to relay; however, I'm going to have to disagree.
You're basically saying that the only way to bring about systemic change is through Marxism, and I can't agree with that. From another comment i posted:
I don't think you understand, because you came out of left field to restate my point as "the only way to bring about systemic change is through Marxism."
Wtf? Where did I say anything related to Marxism, let alone use the word?
I will reply to your quote:
No! Those things are only achievable through anticapitalism! Marxism and anarchism are examples of anticapitalist thought.
"Opposition to traditional hierarchies," "desire for systemic change," "anti-imperialism," and "social justice" are hollow, offensive, and nonsensical when ignoring capitalism.
I'm not a Marxist, and you can call yourself whatever you like, but if you haven't attained class consciousness enough to recognize that capitalism is a death cult, you're a fucking liberal.
you are not left enough.
Would you prefer blue conservatives?
I used to think you were one of the good guys
Liberalism is the political ideology of mainstream capitalism, particularly for the imperialist countries. As the global economic system for decades and decades, this makes liberals a conservative ideology, its members attempt to maintain the fundamental capitalist status quo. Its members that attempt to make substantial changes begin to push at the fringes of liberalism and end up working against it. Reactionaries try to "restore" a largely fictitious past glory and reinforce conservative social mores in order to scapegoat the problems of liberalism onto marginalized communities. Those on the anticapitalist left, those that actually oppose the system itself, are the actually progressive historical actors nowadays. You could have given liberals that label in the 1700s to mid 1800s perhaps, but they are not the defenders of the current order.
its not about gatekeeping anything its about describing reality, if u are a worker either u are a pathetic boot licker or u are leftist and ur mouth looks rather muddy.