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this post was submitted on 10 Oct 2024
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If you feel the urge to argue for collective punishment just shut the fuck up. Saying 'you reap what you sow' in this case is regressive and cruel. Fascists enacted this law undemocratically and many people, human beings that you should have empathy for, are effectively held captive by the GOP which has heavily gerrymandered Florida and engaged in voter suppression and disenfranchisement. Think critically for a second and direct your criticism at the right people.
Literally the post above this one in my feed.
This is exactly the problem with running on "fuck you, got mine". Side A bans homelessness. Side A ends up homeless somehow. Side B, because they aren't running on hate, has sympathy for the circumstances Side A (and B) have found themselves in and helps. Side A faces no consequences ever (hyperbole). Side A doubles down on banning homelessness.
I'm not trying to argue against what you're saying but fuck does this system suck.
Nope. Just nope. You don't get the "fascists did it" thing when urban camping bans are being passed all over the country in red and blue cities, counties, and states.
Homelessness isn't a conservative wedge issue. It's the one class both parties have deemed it okay to abuse and systemically imprison or kill. And now that we have two large examples of people being made homeless through no fault of their own, you want to disavow it and say it's just the far right?
Fuck no. You take that shame and you sit in it and next time you make it an issue to not support council members, mayors, and state officials who support criminalizing the homeless.
Cities, counties, and states are not monolithic entities. There is always a mix of competing interests. This means even in Seattle there are a lot of conservatives. These conservatives own a lot of capital.
Trust me bro, it is most definitely a wedge issue for conservatives. I have been to tons of city and county meetings. It is not liberals calling to imprison the homeless. Guess who wins out. Fucking capital everytime.
You ever had the chance to live in a rural area and hear what they think of homeless people?
The right has been literally demonizing the homeless for thirty or more years now.
They made homelessness a fucking partisan issue. You know about the bleeding heart liberals wasting money on drunks and drug addicts. Their messaging has always been clear, not in my back yard.
The Democratic party is also no were near monolithic either. For sure there are some who blame homelessness on character defects or lack of ambition but the majority do not.
Conservatives are a loud minority voice who have capital to back them up. It is amazing how the government bends over anytime "economic" interests come to play.
This issue is really complex and owes a lot to a social contract we broke when we deinstitutionalized mental hospitals in the 50's and 60's.
And yet you have prominent Liberal Governors like Newsom telling cities they can't have state funding if they don't go after the homeless.
The conservatives aren't doing this on their own, not in deep blue regions. You can't just hand waive away the Democrats doing this.
Sorry but you got a shit take on the situation. I have worked on a homeless task force for years. Guess who wants to solve the problem and who wants to send it away.
Are we all to blame for homelessness to some degree. Probably. Are the liberals the same or even close to as cruel as conservatives, fuck no.
While blaming sides may seem a weak move to you. Take it from someone who is still fighting the fight for homeless rights. You can't compare the two and your just coming across as disingenuous.
Oh and thanks for the laugh about Newsom being a liberal governor. By any measure he is the most moderate liberal around. Hell his election slogan was fucking social liberal fiscal watchdog. He openly admits capital is just as important as human rights.
What do you think a liberal is? I didn't claim he was progressive or anything leftist.
I'm sitting here watching city council after city council enact homeless bans after the SCOTUS ruling, no matter who they say they are. And I'm supposed to take your word that special, far enough left, Democrats don't support this? No. I'm not going to ignore the evidence right in front of my eyes. What's happening on homelessness in this country is disgusting.
And if I'm coming across as disingenuous, what must you be with the "No True Scotsman" fallacy towards anti-homeless Democrats?
You guys are arguing semantics. This is a conservative vs. progressive situation (which you both seem to agree on) and the Dem party is overrun with conservatives (neoliberals).
We should stop referring to Dems and "liberals" and instead refer to conservatives or progressives. The two of you agree substantially on this topic and are effectively arguing about flavors of conservative at this point.
Liberals and conservatives absolutely have different ideologies. People won't stop voting for liberals until we correctly assign blame to them rather than pass it off as a conservative thing.
Well if the liberals consider you a moderate then perhaps that is saying something. I think we can agree he is a poor example.
You can believe whatever you want. You are clearly passionate about this topic which is good. Look at the people in communities pushing for this. It is always the business every time and the solution is to always push them out.
You need to turn your anger towards those that are causing the problem. Your arguments the liberals are either A complacent or B accomplices both have some truth to them. This isn't the problem though.
At the end of the day the voters are the problem. We didn't show up with signs and fire them at the next election. Maybe this is the wake up call this issue needed
True. If the voters demand real progressives (instead of the conservative neoliberal business-class insiders the Dems always run) the party might actually become progressive.
This is a great example of a neoliberal being a conservative. Newsom is a neoliberal. Neoliberals are conservatives who pander to progressives to get votes. They work for the business class, not the human class.
The Dem party is dominated by neoliberals. There are a few progressives in the party as well, but they are marginalized by the neoliberals.
Please stop making up definitions for words that already have them. Liberalism has always been pro capitalist. Neo liberal specifically refers to complete deregulation of the market, abolishing the income tax, and getting rid of social welfare programs like SSI and Medicare.
You first make the above condescending statement, then immediately follow it up by describing right-libertarianism, thus making up a definition for a word that already has that description.
Modern neoliberals are not so extreme as to advocate for the total abolishment of fundamental social safety nets as you suggest. Instead, they are much more diabolical. They pretend to support such programs just enough to attract the socially progressive vote. They frequently hold a platform of "reforming" such programs to lower their costs. Once elected, the modern neoliberal gently strangles those programs to allow them to lower corporate taxes or provide benefits to the business class in exchange for their financial support. Some examples of modern American neoliberals are Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton.
So how 'bout you stop making up definitions for words that already have them? We don't have to debate fucking minutia and semantics at the expense of destroying our actual common enemies. Instead of being condescending to one another, why don't we try working together for a fucking change? I can see why the French started killing each other when they ran out of elites. I am fucking bloodthirsty right now and arguing stupid shit with people on my own team is a waste of both of our resources.
No. Just no.
They share a couple goals. They are not the same thing. And if you want to describe Neo Liberalism so broadly as to mean all American politicians who aren't Socialist then you're just spreading misinformation at that point. Usually this is some stupid take from tankies.
Go look it up. Because Maggoty class time is over. I've spent enough time today on this already.
Okay. Below are some links to sources to support my characterization of neoliberalism and my specific assertion that Clinton and Reagan are thought of as neoliberals in modern American politics.
Now, can you provide any evidence of your assertion that
Because I looked it up like you suggested, and I'm not seeing any evidence to support your claim.
Looks like maybe class is still in session for Maggoty. Please feel free to educate me. I may not be very smart, but I am curious and open to learn some of that Maggoty nuance you like to try to bully people with.
REAGAN AND NEOLIBERALISM
What is neoliberalism? A political scientist explains the use and evolution of the term
Neoliberalism from Reagan to Clinton
Ronald Reagan Was a Proud Neoliberal
First-wave neoliberalism in the 1980s: Reaganomics and Thatcherism
BILL CLINTON WAS A NEOLIBERAL
How Bill Clinton Became a Neoliberal
Bill Clinton Did More to Sell Neoliberalism than Milton Friedman
How the Third Way Made Neoliberal Politics Seem Inevitable
MODERN DEMOCRAT PARTY IS HIGHLY NEOLIBERAL
Democrats and Neoliberalism
How the Democrats Traded the New Deal for Neoliberalism
And not a goddamn .edu among them. Thank you for illustrating the problem. It's literally available for free. Have fun reading, they have one about normal liberals too.
Thanks for the link. Your own source absolutely destroys your case for you. Below is an excerpt. Notice how it is precisely the opposite of your description of neoliberalism.
You know we can all read that in context through the link right?
I'm not saying it's just the far right. The blues you're referring to are still right wing authoritarians.
So they aren't having elections anymore? Do you understand these words have meaning?
Empathy is for individuals. If someone came to me, maga hat, and truck covered in trump Humber stickers, and said him and his daughter had been displaced by the hurricane and needed help, I would give them a room, food and whatever else I could to help and ask for nothing in return. He has not hurt me (directly) and I have no bad blood with him personally so long as he's not being outright racist or anything around me.
But when we're talking about MAGA as a general group, they have hurt me, they are racist and homophobic and trnasphobic and misogynistic and I will happily revel in the Schadenfreude.
If see a nazi sitting at a table and 10 people are at the table talking to them, you have a table with 11 nazis.
There is no tolerance for intolerance.
Yes, diplomacy is obsolete /s
They tried that with the Munich Agreement
It's not 1938 anymore. We understand a lot more about people and where boundaries should be including things like "no genocide." A lot of Nazis could be rehabilitated if they were educated and given therapy and community not based in racism. Or at least I believe so, and I believe in nonviolent communication. I think it doesn't benefit genuine anti-Nazi movements to prohibit rehabilitation and education. And no, it's not rehabilitation or education to be complicit, or actively saying Nazi speech.
That shit doesn't work with fascists.
I think it does, it works with literally everyone else and we have scientific data showing it as well as lay people who help rehab and convert white supremacists and neonazis.
The thing is, if that shit DOES work with fascists, then it creates a burden of nonviolent methods being used first. And violence is so much easier and simpler - it's exactly why the fascists use it too. But yeah, we gotta be creative and try harder and use nonviolent solutions.
This shit is why I'm against spanking, it makes kids stupid and teaches them to commit and expect violence when there's an issue instead of problem solving. It's too bad you can't conceive of a world with nonviolent solutions, since violence itself causes fascism to worsen.
That's valid, and these people are not entitled to your kindness or emotional energy.
But a lot of this hatred comes from people living in their own little bubbles with the only information they get coming from hearsay or propaganda. That's why areas with few immigrants or queer people are the most racist or homophobic. And you can really change people's minds about things by engaging with them, being friendly with them and just giving them living proof that their propaganda is bullshit. See Darling Davis making freinds with KKK members as a great example of this.
Naw, I wouldn't trust a trumper to be in my house or around me. But I'm a queer so I get more vitriol from Republicans.
But we're not talking about MAGA as a group, we're talking about people, without any regard for their political affiliation: Natural disasters aren't checking people's voter registration.
Only about 39% of active Florida voters are registered Republican (sure, some are NPA and vote Republican), but there's at least 29% of us who are registered Democrat and voting in every local and federal election, but here we are anyway.
Yes and those people have my unconditional sympathy. It's not like I'm doing anything to make their lives worse or withholding aid. I'm just taking a moment to enjoy bad things happening to bad people for once and in a fisrly ironic way. It's a minor indulgence that doesn't hurt anyone.
If people with nothing but the clothes on their backs can leave places in Central and South America to make the dangerous journey to the US to try to make a better life for their family, people like you can get the fuck out of Florida before it's too late and you've got brown shirts and border crossing checkpoints.
I honestly wish this was a joke or an exaggeration, and I hate the "just move somewhere else" people... But there comes a point where you just have to do what's best for your safety and get the fuck out while you still have freedom of movement. Maybe I'm a pussy.
“When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.” ~Maya Angelou
You're going to open up your house to someone who will hurt you again, like how they hurt you with their vote and public support of fascism.
So what would Maya Angelou think of Daryl Davis, the man who famously reprogrammed dozens of actual KKK members by going out of his way to befreind them?
If he had listened to that advice there would only be more hatred and racism in the world.
Yup. I will, however, feel less empathy for the people who did vote for these policies
I started writing up this lengthy comment about how this article isn't even about people displaced by the storms so much as those who were already homeless before, and how only ~39% of Florida voters are registered Republican, and even then we're talking about whole families and single mothers here, and about government corruption and voter disenfranchisement, but... You said it all, and much more succinctly. Thank you!
Thank you, I'd encourage you to continue your comment if you're still interested. I'm certainly not the best writer and it's always great to see more genuinely compassionate and progressive takes
I have empathy for people who have empathy themselves. Many of voters in Florida elected these morons, they’re not held hostage except to their own inability to critically think. The elected officials gerrymandered, put judges in place that don’t strike the gerrymandering down, and then the rest of us have to show empathy toward them? Yeah, no.
Sure, for those who are intelligent and didn’t vote for these assholes, I feel bad for them and wish them well.
But clearly much of Florida’s population asked for this — so to those people, you reap what you sow.
I was primarily saying to have empathy for the non-assholes who are also effected by everything the assholes do, but while we're at it, you should reserve some empathy for morons. Enough to think about and understand why they are the way they are, but not sympathize with their bigotry and hatred. The inability to think critically is cultivated. Through underfunding schools, through emotional and physical abuse, through brainwashing from childhood in fundamentalism, through lifelong propagandization and the manufacturing of consent, among many other factors.
I agree on everything except that once a person reaches the age of reason, they can no longer blame their upbringing for their mental inadequacies, barring any real mental disability. At some point people have the ability to think for themselves — they simply choose not to because humans, like electricity, follow the path of least resistance.
At that point they are responsible for their own education, bigotry, and hatred.
Thank you
Lol. Maybe 8-10 years ago I could've bought this. But no. These people actively choose hate, and they will continue doing so even at their own detriment.