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this post was submitted on 26 Sep 2024
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Saw this just after reading the post about Russia knocking out Ukrainian citizens' ability to heat their homes this winter.
Any tankies wanna weigh in on why this is acceptable?
Russia good, West bad. No further thought required.
I suppose it's considered acceptable for the Ukrainian people to suffer like that for the sake of the state interests of Ukraine and NATO, but personally I disagree, which is why I want the war to end. I personally don't see how continued fighting is meant to benefit the average Ukrainian.
No the question was why the attack was acceptable but incredible pivot on the question. That must have taken years of training.
As a tankie, I oppose virtually all war, because that's what being a tankie means. I don't consider it acceptable for Russia to knock out the ability for people to heat their homes.
You just prefer having the human rights abuses against populations that lack the means for defense, like when it happens to Uyghurs.
Do you ever get tired of following me around and telling lies?
It's minimal effort to inform users of the truth when I see you spreading yet more disinformation in one of these communities we both browse.
If you want to play make-believe, wouldn't you have more fun on your .ml instance where the admins treat facts with the same disdain you do? Not sure why you bring these takes outside of the echo chamber if you don't like getting called out.
You do have a point, it's probably better to spend time on instances where people have the same disdain for facts that I do (none) as opposed to instances where people have a much higher disdain for facts, as evidenced by the fact that you're allowed to run around telling blatant lies about people constantly.
Sounds good. You can enjoy the purely factual praise of Russia, China, and North Korea on the .ml and hexbear instances, safely sheltered by admins who view those countries with a purely objective lens.
Good riddance
You understand that stopping fighting would in no way benefit the average Ukrainian and I think most people would agree your nation no longer existing would be the least beneficial thing for Ukraine.
I'm genuinely curious: we all want the way to stop but I really do want to know what's your solution?
No, I do not "understand" this at all. The average Ukrainian would certainly be better off of the fighting stopped.
First off, Ukraine "no longer existing" isn't really on the table. Secondly, while a state no longer existing is obviously a bad outcome from the perspective of the state, whether it's good or bad for the average person, and to what degree, depends on the state and what the alternative is.
I'm not aware of very much that the Ukrainian state was doing to help it's people before the war, or what rights people living in the disputed territories would enjoy as part of Ukraine as opposed to if they were part of Russia, or vice versa. So I see very little case for supporting either side in the war, from the perspective of class interests as distinct from state interests.
Negotiate. Diplomatic approaches have been completely written off from start to finish, with Ukraine insisting on a complete withdrawal from all disputed territory as a precondition for talks, even from Crimea, which Russia already had before the war. Some territorial concessions are worth it to stop the meat grinder, because the amount of lives that would have to be sacrificed to reclaim all the territory are not worth the benefit.
How? Russia won't leave and they aren't tasting anyone well, kidnapping kids during the war kinda tells you everything you need to know.
It 100% is, give in this time and they'll do it again just like last time.
So you're ignorant but insist your opinion is correct?
They've tried, Russia says give up territory or die, no middle ground. This is very well documented.
That user is an accelerationist who wants Donald to drive the US into the ground so China can gain more global influence. They're deliberately unwilling to confront facts, as you can see by the suggestion of Ukraine negotiating with country notorious for failing to honor its treaties.
Every word you speak is a lie. Are you even capable of being truthful?
I mean judging by what I've seen it doesn't seem like they're wrong.
Your stance is at best naively idealistic or at worst incredibly ill informed, stupid and legitimately dangerous.
Source?
Source?
Y'all just casually lie about people constantly, all the time and none of you ever see anything wrong with it whatsoever. You're backing up someone who is blatantly lying, and who constantly lies about my positions. Back up their claims then, if you claim they're not a liar, if you claim that "it doesn't seem like they're wrong." Show me that you don't just blindly accept claims with zero evidence. Show me that you're not a liar just like they are.
Prove my point for me why don't ya.
That is accurate, their opinion of you isn't something I can verify but calling for Ukraine to surrender is actually accelerationist behavior so.....
In what way is that accelerationist?
If I were an accelerationist, I would want the US to overextend into as many conflicts as possible, and I would want those conflicts to last as long as possible, in order to weaken it. I don't, because I'm not, because that's a lie.
Do you have another phrase or word for advocating for Russian regional superiority knowing their intent on reunification of the former Soviet Union.
That's exactly what you are doing though bud, you just don't seem to see it. The Ukrainian conflict wouldn't end with Ukraine surrendering, Russia will simply move to the next country and force Ukrainians to fight for them.
I don't "know" their intent on reunification of the Soviet Union and neither do you. They say the same thing in every conflict we've ever been in, the enemy will keep expanding forever so we have no choice but to fight. Remember "Domino Theory" from Vietnam? How'd that play out? Remember how with the War on Terror, it was "If we don't fight them over there, we'll have to fight them over here." Well, we're not fighting them over there, so where are they? It's the easiest propaganda line ever because you don't need any evidence and you can apply it to anyone under any circumstances.
As for a word for what you're describing "isolationist" or "dove" would be most appropriate. Peacenik. Defeatist. Pinko. Hell, you could even go with coward, if you like. It's not as if there's a shortage of derogatory terms for people advocating peace, it's a very common thing to deride, historically speaking. Just go back and look at what people were calling me when I opposed the War on Terror if you need some inspiration.
You should, they're not quiet about it at all. None of those were invasions prior to us intervention, you can blame a lot of shit on the US but Ukraine ain't one.
Nope, isolationists and doves stfu because they don't want to be involved. You're neither peacnik nor pinko because Ukraines surrender attains no left leaning goal, it does just the opposite in allowing an authoritarian shithead to take over yet more of the world.... Again. This has nothing to do with the war on terror, not being shitty in one area doesn't mean you aren't shitty in another, get a grip.
Please elaborate how opposing military aid to a country on the other side of the world is not an isolationist stance. You just said, "because they don't want to get involved." That's my stance, I don't want to get involved.
I don't think you know what any of those terms mean tbh. Or rather, I think you know what they mean and are pretending that they don't mean what they do because you're acting in bad faith.
Again isolationists isolate themselves, meaning they don't meddle... Like insisting their opinion on a matter they have no legitimate interest in. You're involving yourself right now dumb dumb, if you don't want to be involved... Don't involve yourself.
That's not an argument, that's deflection.
That's a completely ridiculous take. That's not isolationism, that's political disengagement. How do you even manage to say something so wrong?
Isolationists do not disengage from matters of foreign intervention, we actively oppose it. That's what isolationism means, and you obviously know that.
If you actually had any confidence in your position whatsoever, you would have no problem saying that my position is isolationist and that isolationism is wrong. But instead, you're trying to use wordplay to shift definitions in an attempt to delegitimize my position, by adopting the completely insane stance that wanting non-intervention in a conflict is somehow inconsistent with isolationism.
This is very blatant bad faith.
Is the literal definition bud.
That's not a logical assumption dude, your lack of understanding of anything has nothing to do with the veracity of my position. Again, you're deflecting.
That's literally what I'm arguing for. How could you possibly construe that definition as supporting your position as opposed to mine?
So you're saying you are Ukrainian? If you aren't then you're not an isolationists, you're an naive idealist who seems to think surrendering to a country who is literally beheading and sledgehammering surrendering troops.
You'll have a Russian with more resources, more people and more territory. The last two times the world let that happen we lost over 15 million people... Each time.
No, I am not Ukrainian. I oppose my country's involvement in the conflict. That is an isolationist position, by your definition.
Walk me through the chain of logic that leads you to say that I would have to be Ukrainian for my opposition to involvement in foreign conflicts to be isolationist. I know that you can't do this, because you were just spouting off random bullshit when you asked that, but pretending that there's some bizarre chain of reasoning behind it, what is it?
And when you can't provide it, as you've been evading doing this whole time, I will be proven right that you're just another liar.
You're not isolating yourself nor you're country, you're actively advocating for actions that weaken left leaning countries and strengthen right leaning ones and at the same limits the ability of us soft power. You're an idealist, you reject reality, history, logic and factual basis in place of the way you feel things should work out though you know in your heart they will not, they can not.
Start with proving a single lie ya crybaby.
Also, don't call yourself a pinko, the far left at least has the fortitude and intelligence to know when their idealism illogical and the birthday to defend. You seem to have none of that.
So, you can't present any line of reasoning. Called it.
I'm not an idealist at all. You've said this several times now but it's completely wrong. If anything, I'd think you'd call me too cynical. It isn't realistic for Ukraine to reclaim all of it's lost territory, and the war is about national interests moreso than helping the average person. How are either of those things idealist rather than cynical or realist? You're the one who wants to keep fighting regardless of the conditions of the ground purely because you see your side as morally correct. That is idealist.
You lied about me being an accelerationist. You lied about me not being an isolationist.
You still can't explain any of your reasoning at all about how opposing intervention is somehow not isolationist, which, I mean, obviously you can't, any more that you could prove that 1=2. It's a completely absurd and unserious claim on its face.
I gave you my exact reasoning. You're certainly not pricing that other fellow wrong here boss.
You are. You can be cynical and an idealist, I'm not sure where you got the idea they're mutually exclusive. It is, they're doing an incredible job for a country that when invaded was not a near peer to the invading country at all and still by the numbers technically aren't. They're idealist because you ignore the unpleasant reality that Ukraine already ceded territory once before and Russia invaded a few years later. They will not stop, they are murdering troops rather than taking pows, they're beheading people on fucking video, they're sledgehammering their own troops to death, surrendering and losing territory just means they can expect it to happen again.
When exactly did I say it was at all morally correct bud? Reality doesn't play morals the right choice is almost never the ideal nor in fact often the most moral, it is simply the best choice. Also no that's realist, but nice try with the bad assumptions.
No I said you show accelerationist behaviors, which you do. It's out of naive idealism but still it's outcome is accelerationist. You aren't an isolationist, you're an idealist.
I've explained it all bud. What part are you confused about specifically and I'll elucidate it for you. You aren't opposing intervention, we aren't intervening. We're a capitalist country with an incredibly large and profitable arms industry, we're making a very good sales pitch and protecting an investment. If we intervened Russias Navy as a whole would be gone for good within 72hrs, ask Iran.
Where?? Where did you even begin to explain this total and absolute nonsense? You can't just claim to have explained it without explaining anything.
The last I dunno, 7 or so comments as I reply to you question by question each time. The fact you're confused about that fact does actually explain some things though.
Cool, the last 7 of my comments contained conclusive proof that you were wrong.
Totally, except for having factual or logical basis in reality.
Are we going to add troll to that list as well just to prove that other guy fully right. You're the type of person that makes people laugh at .ml for being blindly idealist idiots.
>Claims ridiculous nonsense
>Refuses to elaborate
>Claims to have elaborated
>Accuses the other person of being a troll
Good talk. You were always looking to laugh at me no matter what I said or didn't say, that's why you spent the whole conversation trolling and claiming ridiculous nonsense and pretending like you'd defended it when you didn't explain a word of your reasoning the whole time. I don't know whether I ever entertained "Isolationism isn't isolationism" for a moment, you obviously only said it to troll from the start.
The complete post-truth doublethink the liberals are doing these days is shocking. There is no difference between MAGA Trump supporters and the vast majority of liberals these days. I don't think they are capable to be truthful any more.
It really shows what happens when the mainstream media is owned by oligarchs and use the right propaganda to hone in on the "emotional truths" of a group. For them it's about justice and and evil and a good. US supporting Israel commit genocide is evil. US supporting Ukraine become demcoratic is good. Russia attacking because of NATO expansion is evil.
So everything that doesn't fit with this narrative, that they are the good guys, is dismissed or rationalized. Easy when it just so happens if the arguments are made by their evil enemies. Historical facts simply don't matter.
That's also true, but I was talking more about the .world culture where you can just casually lie and make up whatever you like about the out group and everyone just goes along with it, with zero sources needed. It's very much an echo chamber where nobody cares about evidence or truth, not just in terms of politics and world affairs, but also with people and conversations. You can go full on Yeonmi Park with it so long as you're in the in-group talking about the out-group. I think it's brought over from toxic Reddit culture.
Well that is part of the defense mechanism. There really are trolls, bots, agitprop etc. So we now anyone who is using an argument that Trump or Putin ever made, must be an enemy (genetic fallacy). And is hence is "fair game" to attack and lie about to protect the narrative. Being called a bot is like the ultimate dehumanization.
I don't think it's reddit culture, it's bigger than that. People are just badly informed and the disinformation is total. Journalists who even slightly deviate are fired all over the world.
Maybe there is so much noise now that people rely more and more on mainstream media that are completely captured now.
Because dictators use the new land for continued invasions while exterminating the non compliant population. War is a better condition to be under fighting for freedom, than the conditions of the Holocaust and complete despair.
Putin isn't doing the Holocaust. In the case of WWII, you can point very clearly to a reason why stopping Hitler was in the class interests of the people of Europe. I never claimed to be opposed to all war, just to wars that aren't in the interests of the average person. It's kind of telling that you have to jump to a completely different conflict from 70 years ago instead of just making the case for the current conflict, or at least comparing it to something from recent history.
The mass murders and rehoming of Ukrainian children to Russia is where all the rubber meets the road here. He's not killing the privileged class of Ukrainians, they're long gone. He's genociding the working class that's forced to stay and get bombed into paste.