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[-] HEXN3T 99 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Veganism: Great lifestyle. Wretched, toxic community (mostly).

EDIT: I want to add I'm very much pro-vegan. They're literally right. I probably will go vegan as soon as I work out a solution to my eating disorder (ARFID). You just won't see me in any community. They just seem psychologically unhealthy.

[-] Zozano@lemy.lol 40 points 5 months ago

As a vegan, can confirm.

When I was on reddit, I could not be part of the r/vegan community, it was fucked.

The community here on Lemmy was better (though I wasn't subbed because these communities are mostly newcomers to the vegan scene coming fresh off the high of being morally superior to the carnists).

The good vegan communities were the ones focused on recipes.

If you want to discus animal liberation, good, go do that, but I don't want to my feed to be a combination of dinner and animal abuse. I'm trying to move past that...

[-] hate2bme@lemmy.world 12 points 5 months ago

Sounds like someone should start a recipe only sub

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[-] ByteOnBikes@slrpnk.net 20 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I hate that Vegans are defined by the psychopath edge cases.

I know 3 vegans. Two of them have cats. They aren't delusional. They know cats are carnivores. They wish people ate more veggies. But live your life, you know?

The other vegan I know choose veganism because of serious life-threatening issues where meat was causing hospital visits. She went cold turkey and will watch you eat a steak and wishing she could do the same.

It's fucking weird watching people shit on them. All because a psychopath on the internet speaks for all vegans and shoves broccoli into a cats mouth.

[-] HEXN3T 13 points 5 months ago

I'm not judging vegans. I'm judging vegan communities. Big difference.

[-] Emerald@lemmy.world 8 points 5 months ago

The other vegan I know choose veganism because of serious life-threatening issues where meat was causing hospital visits. She went cold turkey and will watch you eat a steak and wishing she could do the same.

That doesn't really sound like a vegan to me, that's just a person who is on a plant based diet. Veganism is a moral stance

[-] AA5B@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago

I wish I knew 3 vegans (or if they tell me who they are). While I have no plans to go there, I’ve been on a kick of learning to cook for other cultures. It’s been a wonderful experience learning to prepare new foods and even helping my teens experience a much more diverse cuisine than otherwise. I’m all for learning to prepare some vegan meals, but so far just lookin at recipes online is not giving me enough “flavor”

I’m most persuaded by the environmental argument for veganism and am totally open to less animal products or fewer meat days

[-] PetteriSkaffari@lemmy.world 13 points 5 months ago

It's like being a non-smoker on a party where everybody smokes. Almost nobody wants to hear that they're doing something wrong. Toxicity is literally in the non-vegan community, warming up the climate and all, decreasing biodiversity, mistreating and killing animals for pleasure.

[-] Soulg@sh.itjust.works 34 points 5 months ago

You see, when you come into a comment thread defending your stance and still decide you need to act like a cunt, that's exactly why people don't like vegan communities.

[-] erin 11 points 5 months ago

That didn't seem particularly cunt-ish to me.

[-] MagicPterodactyl@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago

Yeah I don't get all these crazy harsh responses to this particular comment.

[-] Zoot@reddthat.com 1 points 5 months ago

They specifically responded to someone who has dietary issues and tried to make them feel bad for something OP didn't choose.

Literally no reason to add the last part except to make themselves feel superior.

[-] Lobreeze@lemmy.world 28 points 5 months ago

You just can't help yourself can you?

[-] YeetPics@mander.xyz 4 points 5 months ago

Have you stopped to think that plants also suffer stress when being picked?

It's kinda one-faceted to just ignore that suffering while focusing on other suffering don't you think?

True ethical consumption doesn't exist the way you have it defined.

[-] Emerald@lemmy.world 3 points 5 months ago

Have you stopped to think that plants also suffer stress when being picked?

Yes. And they don't

[-] commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 5 months ago
[-] Emerald@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

And you can't prove it either. provide some evidence for your claim (that isn't some unrelated study misinterpreted by silly news anchors)

[-] commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 5 months ago

while you can't prove a negative, it is possible to find evidence for a positive claim. so, very much, you don't know that. the truest thing anyone can say is that there is not a conclusive study that supports the claim.

[-] Emerald@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago

Even if plants might feel pain, we are certain that animals feel pain. Also if you think for whatever reason that plants feel pain, then, well, a vegan diet uses less plants because its a more efficient food source. Plants feeling pain, whether true or false, isn't an argument against veganism in any way.

[-] commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 5 months ago

the crux of the argument that they might feel pain is not that it is wrong, but that it is inevitable, so it cannot be wrong

[-] Emerald@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago

I had a stroke while reading this. Can you clarify what you meant?

[-] commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 5 months ago

when somebody raises the objection that plants feel pain, it's not an appeal to hypocrisy. it's a statement of fact whether we can prove it or not. and it's the premise of a larger argument. that argument goes

pain is an inevitable facet of food production

food production is a moral good

an inevitable facet of food production cannot make food production bad

therefore

food production remains a moral good

your rebuttal was targeted at defending against the accusation of hypocrisy, but the devastating bit has nothing to do with the hypocrisy.

[-] Emerald@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Pain might be an inevitable facet of food production (crop deaths). But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to eliminate as much pain as we reasonably can.


Pain is an inevitable facet of surgery

Surgery is a moral good

an inevitable facet of surgery cannot make surgey bad

surgery remains a moral good


The fact that pain is inevitable to surgery doesn't mean we should stop giving patients anesthesia and pain medication.

[-] commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 5 months ago

there is an obvious case for easing the pain of humans, but not so much for our food.

[-] Emerald@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago

So it just loops back to speciesism then? You don't care about the pain animals face, only humans?

[-] commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 5 months ago

as kant said, cruelty is bad. you ought not kick a dog, for instance, but there is no contradiction in animal agriculture itself. if some operations are acting cruelly, we should admonish them. otherwise, tehre is no reason to believe non-human animals can participate in an ethical society, so there is no reason to include them in our ethical systems.

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[-] nyctre@lemmy.world 3 points 5 months ago

They don't, but they also kinda do .... They communicate with each other and with animals, they have different chemical reactions to different stimuli, etc. just because they're different from you doesn't mean they don't suffer. Probably less than factory animals, that's for sure, ofc. But not everyone that eats meat supports that shit.

[-] Emerald@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago

The plants communicate for survival because of natural selection, not because they are avoiding pain

[-] Modern_medicine_isnt@lemmy.world 9 points 5 months ago

I just want to ask for more details on the "they're litterally right" part. Mostly cause I didn't think the had an official organized statement to be right about. But I don't really follow them, so maybe I'm missing something.

[-] HEXN3T 38 points 5 months ago

Veganism is, in fact:

A. Far more sustainable.

B. Perfectly healthy.

C. Completely possible to adapt to.

Veganism, without a doubt, would be better for the planet, and probably better for humans. I simply don't like the communities.

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[-] 4ce@lemm.ee 5 points 5 months ago

I didn’t think the had an official organized statement

There sort of is. The term "vegan" was coined by some members of the Vegetarian Society of the UK in the 1940s (at the time veganism and vegan diet were mostly referred to by terms such as "strict vegetarianism" or "no animal food" etc.), who shortly after founded the Vegan Society [of the UK]. The latter has an "official" definition of veganism:

"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."

Of course individual vegans may have slightly different definitions, and may interpret them differently, but as a whole this seems to be a fairly accurate definition for many vegans (although there are some exceptions, e.g. people who adopt plant-based diets for (percieved or actual) health benefits, or religious reasons, sometimes (but not always) also refer to themselves as "vegans").

As to the "literally right" part (I assume the OP was referring to veganism in general, not the specific issue of the thread), it mostly boils down to whether or not we think the statement "it is (morally) wrong to unnecessarily cause harm to animals" is correct. Since most people (with perhaps the exception of some with rare medical conditions) can survive just fine on a diet free of animal products (same goes for clothing etc.), we can conclude that it is at least unnecessary to use animal products. Thus, if we agree with the rest of the statement (i.e. that exploiting animals for their meat or other products causes them harm) we should also agree with veganism as an ethical stance. Naturally this could be discussed in much more detail and with many caveats, but for me this is more or less the core of the argument. And as it turns out, a lot of moral philosophers from different meta-ethical schools (such as utilitarianism, Kantian ethics or virtue ethics) seem to agree at the very least that the arguments in favour of veganism are much stronger than those in defense of eating meat (and particularly those in defense of factory farming). Some further reading for those interested:

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[-] deaf_fish@lemm.ee 8 points 5 months ago

I'm on a similar train. Once I get over myself, I'm going vegan.

[-] DakRalter@thelemmy.club 5 points 5 months ago

I probably would have been diagnosed ARFID as a kid if it was a thing back then. But switching to a plant based diet ten years ago actually made me try MORE foods. Before that, it was tea and toast for breakfast, jacket potato or chips for lunch and crisps and chocolate for dinner. Maybe once or twice I week I might boil a bit of sweetcorn or carrot to go with my lunch. So yeah, very poor diet.

Even my mum, who was quite against my diet change at first, had to admit that it was the best thing for me. You tend to become more aware of what you're eating in terms of nutrition.

Also a lot of my physical and mental health problems eased up. I used to find it very difficult to eat breakfast if I had to wake up early, I'd feel sick and struggle to swallow food, I don't know why exactly, but after I switched, I can eat at 5 in the morning, no problem.

I'm not vegan (I eat a fish finger or two now and then, maybe 3 or 4 times a month), but yeah definitely I feel better in both mind and body since cutting out dairy and eggs (I know for a fact eggs were triggering my anxiety and low mood, dairy was the physical).

Here in the UK, it's much easier to follow a plant based diet in recent years. On the negative side, there's a lot more vegan junk food and highly processed meat alternatives available now.

The key to enjoying a plant based diet is to appreciate plant foods for what they are. Don't think that you need to replace your meat with a fake meat. It's more costly too.

Sorry for the essay. Good luck!

[-] Akareth@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago

According to people following the carnivore diet, they're wrong.

this post was submitted on 30 Aug 2024
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