overview for scruiser

look AI doom is all very well, but we have extremely important message board drama to be getting on with by scruiser in c/sneerclub@awful.systems

[-] scruiser@awful.systems 3 points 15 hours ago

And some people are crediting Eliezer as if he predicted this devastating damage and not something completely different. Or they compare LLMs spewing shit to his scenarios of agentically and intellignetly dangerous and manipulative AGIs.

Stubsack: weekly thread for sneers not worth an entire post, week ending 27th July 2025 by scruiser in c/techtakes@awful.systems

[-] scruiser@awful.systems 8 points 16 hours ago

Should we give up on all altruist causes because the AGI God is nearly here? the answer may surprise you!

tldr; actually you shouldn't give because the AGI God might not be quite omnipotent and thus would still benefit from your help and maybe there will be multiple Gods, some used for Good and some for Evil so your efforts are still needed. Shrimp are getting their eyeballs cut off right now!

Stubsack: weekly thread for sneers not worth an entire post, week ending 27th July 2025 by scruiser in c/techtakes@awful.systems

[-] scruiser@awful.systems 14 points 1 day ago

So this blog post was framed positively towards LLM's and is too generous in accepting many of the claims around them, but even so, the end conclusions are pretty harsh on practical LLM agents: https://utkarshkanwat.com/writing/betting-against-agents/

Basically, the author has tried extensively, in multiple projects, to make LLM agents work in various useful ways, but in practice:

The dirty secret of every production agent system is that the AI is doing maybe 30% of the work. The other 70% is tool engineering: designing feedback interfaces, managing context efficiently, handling partial failures, and building recovery mechanisms that the AI can actually understand and use.

The author strips down and simplifies and sanitizes everything going into the LLMs and then implements both automated checks and human confirmation on everything they put out. At that point it makes you question what value you are even getting out of the LLM. (The real answer, which the author only indirectly acknowledges, is attracting idiotic VC funding and upper management approval).

Even as critcal as they are, the author doesn't acknowledge a lot of the bigger problems. The API cost is a major expense and design constraint on the LLM agents they have made, but the author doesn't acknowledge the prices are likely to rise dramatically once VC subsidization runs out.

Stubsack: weekly thread for sneers not worth an entire post, week ending 27th July 2025 by scruiser in c/techtakes@awful.systems

[-] scruiser@awful.systems 7 points 2 days ago

Is this “narrative” in the room with us right now?

I actually recall recently someone pro llm trying to push that sort of narrative (that it's only already mentally ill people being pushed over the edge by chatGPT)...

Where did I see it... oh yes, lesswrong! https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/f86hgR5ShiEj4beyZ/on-chatgpt-psychosis-and-llm-sycophancy

This has all the hallmarks of a moral panic. ChatGPT has 122 million daily active users according to Demand Sage, that is something like a third the population of the United States. At that scale it's pretty much inevitable that you're going to get some real loonies on the platform. In fact at that scale it's pretty much inevitable you're going to get people whose first psychotic break lines up with when they started using ChatGPT. But even just stylistically it's fairly obvious that journalists love this narrative. There's nothing Western readers love more than a spooky story about technology gone awry or corrupting people, it reliably rakes in the clicks.

The ~~call~~ narrative is coming from inside the ~~house~~ forum. Actually, this is even more of a deflection, not even trying to claim they were already on the edge but that the number of delusional people is at the base rate (with no actual stats on rates of psychotic breaks, because on lesswrong vibes are good enough).

look AI doom is all very well, but we have extremely important message board drama to be getting on with by scruiser in c/sneerclub@awful.systems

[-] scruiser@awful.systems 9 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Some of the comments are, uh, really telling:

The main effects of the sort of “AI Safety/Alignment” movement Eliezer was crucial in popularizing have been OpenAI, which Eliezer says was catastrophic, and funding for “AI Safety/Alignment” professionals, whom Eliezer believes to predominantly be dishonest grifters. This doesn't seem at all like what he or his sincere supporters thought they were trying to do.

The irony is completely lost on them.

I wasn't sure what you meant here, where two guesses are "the models/appeal in Death with Dignity are basically accurate, but, should prompt a deeper 'what went wrong with LW or MIRI's collective past thinking and decisionmaking?, '" and "the models/appeals in Death with Dignity are suspicious or wrong, and we should be halt-melting-catching-fire about the fact that Eliezer is saying them?"

The OP replies that they meant the former... the later is a better answer, Death with Dignity is kind of a big reveal of a lot of flaws with Eliezer and MIRI. To recap, Eliezer basically concluded that since he couldn't solve AI alignment, no one could, and everyone is going to die. It is like a microcosm of Eliezer's ego and approach to problem solving.

"Trigger the audience into figuring out what went wrong with MIRI's collective past thinking and decision-making" would be a strange purpose from a post written by the founder of MIRI, its key decision-maker, and a long-time proponent of secrecy in how the organization should relate to outsiders (or even how members inside the organization should relate to other members of MIRI).

Yeah, no shit secrecy is bad for scientific inquiry and open and honest reflections on failings.

...You know, if I actually believed in the whole AGI doom scenario (and bought into Eliezer's self-hype) I would be even more pissed at him and sneer even harder at him. He basically set himself up as a critical savior to mankind, one of the only people clear sighted enough to see the real dangers and most important question... and then he totally failed to deliver. Not only that he created the very hype that would trigger the creation of the unaligned AGI he promised to prevent!

Stubsack: weekly thread for sneers not worth an entire post, week ending 15th June 2025 by scruiser in c/techtakes@awful.systems

[-] scruiser@awful.systems 26 points 1 month ago

So, I've been spending too much time on subreddits with heavy promptfondler presence, such as /r/singularity, and the reddit algorithm keeps recommending me subreddit with even more unhinged LLM hype. One annoying trend I've noted is that people constantly conflate LLM-hybrid approaches, such as AlphaGeometry or AlphaEvolve (or even approaches that don't involve LLMs at all, such as AlphaFold) with LLMs themselves. From their they act like of course LLMs can [insert things LLMs can't do: invent drugs, optimize networks, reliably solve geometry exercise, etc.].

Like I saw multiple instances of commenters questioning/mocking/criticizing the recent Apple paper using AlphaGeometry as a counter example. AlphaGeometry can actually solve most of the problems without an LLM at all, the LLM component replaces a set of heuristics that make suggestions on proof approaches, the majority of the proof work is done by a symbolic AI working with a rigid formal proof system.

I don't really have anywhere I'm going with this, just something I noted that I don't want to waste the energy repeatedly re-explaining on reddit, so I'm letting a primal scream out here to get it out of my system.

Apple: ‘Reasoning’ AIs fail hard if they actually have to think by scruiser in c/techtakes@awful.systems

[-] scruiser@awful.systems 34 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

The promptfondlers on places like /r/singularity are trying so hard to spin this paper. "It's still doing reasoning, it just somehow mysteriously fails when you it's reasoning gets too long!" or "LRMs improved with an intermediate number of reasoning tokens" or some other excuse. They are missing the point that short and medium length "reasoning" traces are potentially the result of pattern memorization. If the LLMs are actually reasoning and aren't just pattern memorizing, then extending the number of reasoning tokens proportionately with the task length should let the LLMs maintain performance on the tasks instead of catastrophically failing. Because this isn't the case, apple's paper is evidence for what big names like Gary Marcus, Yann Lecun, and many pundits and analysts have been repeatedly saying: LLMs achieve their results through memorization, not generalization, especially not out-of-distribution generalization.

ChatGPT o3 found a Linux Kernel vulnerability. "The future" has an 8% success rate, and a 28% chance of false positives. by scruiser in c/techtakes@awful.systems

[-] scruiser@awful.systems 42 points 1 month ago

Of course, part of that wiring will be figuring out how to deal with the the signal to noise ratio of ~1:50 in this case, but that’s something we are already making progress at.

This line annoys me... LLMs excel at making signal-shaped noise, so separating out an absurd number of false positives (and investigating false negatives further) is very difficult. It probably requires that you have some sort of actually reliable verifier, and if you have that, why bother with LLMs in the first place instead of just using that verifier directly?

Stubsack: weekly thread for sneers not worth an entire post, week ending 1st June 2025 by scruiser in c/techtakes@awful.systems

[-] scruiser@awful.systems 21 points 2 months ago

A new LLM plays pokemon has started, with o3 this time. It plays moderately faster, and the twitch display UI is a little bit cleaner, so it is less tedious to watch. But in terms of actual ability, so far o3 has made many of the exact same errors as Claude and Gemini including: completely making things up/seeing things that aren't on the screen (items in Virdian Forest), confused attempts at navigation (it went back and forth on whether the exit to Virdian Forest was in the NE or NW corner), repeating mistakes to itself (both the items and the navigation issues I mentioned), confusing details from other generations of Pokemon (Nidoran learns double kick at level 12 in Fire Red and Leaf Green, but not the original Blue/Yellow), and it has signs of being prone to going on completely batshit tangents (it briefly started getting derailed about sneaking through the tree in Virdian Forest... i.e. moving through completely impassable tiles).

I don't know how anyone can watch any of the attempts at LLMs playing Pokemon and think (viable) LLM agents are just around the corner... well actually I do know: hopium, cope, cognitive bias, and deliberate deception. The whole LLM playing Pokemon thing is turning into less of a test of LLMs and more entertainment and advertising of the models, and the scaffold are extensive enough and different enough from each other that they really aren't showing the models' raw capabilities (which are even worse than I complained about) or comparing them meaningfully.

19

Sneerquence classics: Eliezer on GOFAI (half serious half sneering effort post) (awful.systems)

submitted 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) by scruiser@awful.systems to c/sneerclub@awful.systems

22 comments fedilink

I found a neat essay discussing the history of Doug Lenat, Eurisko, and cyc here. The essay is pretty cool, Doug Lenat made one of the largest and most systematic efforts to make Good Old Fashioned Symbolic AI reach AGI through sheer volume and detail of expert system entries. It didn't work (obviously), but what's interesting (especially in contrast to LLMs), is that Doug made his business, Cycorp actually profitable and actually produce useful products in the form of custom built expert systems to various customers over the decades with a steady level of employees and effort spent (as opposed to LLM companies sucking up massive VC capital to generate crappy products that will probably go bust).

This sparked memories of lesswrong discussion of Eurisko... which leads to some choice sneerable classic lines.

In a sequence classic, Eliezer discusses Eurisko. Having read an essay explaining Eurisko more clearly, a lot of Eliezer's discussion seems a lot emptier now.

To the best of my inexhaustive knowledge, EURISKO may still be the most sophisticated self-improving AI ever built - in the 1980s, by Douglas Lenat before he started wasting his life on Cyc. EURISKO was applied in domains ranging from the Traveller war game (EURISKO became champion without having ever before fought a human) to VLSI circuit design.

This line is classic Eliezer dunning-kruger arrogance. The lesson from Cyc were used in useful expert systems and effort building the expert systems was used to continue to advance Cyc, so I would call Doug really successful actually, much more successful than many AGI efforts (including Eliezer's). And it didn't depend on endless VC funding or hype cycles.

EURISKO used "heuristics" to, for example, design potential space fleets. It also had heuristics for suggesting new heuristics, and metaheuristics could apply to any heuristic, including metaheuristics. E.g. EURISKO started with the heuristic "investigate extreme cases" but moved on to "investigate cases close to extremes". The heuristics were written in RLL, which stands for Representation Language Language. According to Lenat, it was figuring out how to represent the heuristics in such fashion that they could usefully modify themselves without always just breaking, that consumed most of the conceptual effort in creating EURISKO.

...

EURISKO lacked what I called "insight" - that is, the type of abstract knowledge that lets humans fly through the search space. And so its recursive access to its own heuristics proved to be for nought. Unless, y'know, you're counting becoming world champion at Traveller without ever previously playing a human, as some sort of accomplishment.

Eliezer simultaneously mocks Doug's big achievements but exaggerates this one. The detailed essay I linked at the beginning actually explains this properly. Traveller's rules inadvertently encouraged a narrow degenerate (in the mathematical sense) strategy. The second place person actually found the same broken strategy Doug (using Eurisko) did, Doug just did it slightly better because he had gamed it out more and included a few ship designs that countered the opponent doing the same broken strategy. It was a nice feat of a human leveraging a computer to mathematically explore a game, it wasn't an AI independently exploring a game.

Another lesswronger brings up Eurisko here. Eliezer is of course worried:

This is a road that does not lead to Friendly AI, only to AGI. I doubt this has anything to do with Lenat's motives - but I'm glad the source code isn't published and I don't think you'd be doing a service to the human species by trying to reimplement it.

And yes, Eliezer actually is worried a 1970s dead end in AI might lead to FOOM and AGI doom. To a comment here:

Are you really afraid that AI is so easy that it's a very short distance between "ooh, cool" and "oh, shit"?

Eliezer responds:

Depends how cool. I don't know the space of self-modifying programs very well. Anything cooler than anything that's been tried before, even marginally cooler, has a noticeable subjective probability of going to shit. I mean, if you kept on making it marginally cooler and cooler, it'd go to "oh, shit" one day after a sequence of "ooh, cools" and I don't know how long that sequence is.

Fearmongering back in 2008 even before he had given up and gone full doomer.

And this reminds me, Eliezer did not actually predict which paths lead to better AI. In 2008 he was pretty convinced Neural Networks were not a path to AGI.

Not to mention that neural networks have also been "failing" (i.e., not yet succeeding) to produce real AI for 30 years now. I don't think this particular raw fact licenses any conclusions in particular. But at least don't tell me it's still the new revolutionary idea in AI.

Apparently it took all the way until AlphaGo (sometime 2015 to 2017) for Eliezer to start to realize he was wrong. (He never made a major post about changing his mind, I had to reconstruct this process and estimate this date from other lesswronger's discussing it and noticing small comments from him here and there.) Of course, even as late as 2017, MIRI was still neglecting neural networks to focus on abstract frameworks like "Highly Reliable Agent Design".

So yeah. Puts things into context, doesn't it.

Bonus: One of Doug's last papers, which lists out a lot of lessons LLMs could take from cyc and expert systems. You might recognize the co-author, Gary Marcus, from one of the LLM critical blogs: https://garymarcus.substack.com/

19

China and AGI: A New Yellow Peril and Red Scare (awful.systems)

submitted 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) by scruiser@awful.systems to c/sneerclub@awful.systems

14 comments fedilink

So, lesswrong Yudkowskian orthodoxy is that any AGI without "alignment" will bootstrap to omnipotence, destroy all mankind, blah, blah, etc. However, there has been the large splinter heresy of accelerationists that want AGI as soon as possible and aren't worried about this at all (we still make fun of them because what they want would result in some cyberpunk dystopian shit in the process of trying to reach it). However, even the accelerationist don't want Chinese AGI, because insert standard sinophobic rhetoric about how they hate freedom and democracy or have world conquering ambitions or they simply lack the creativity, technical ability, or background knowledge (i.e. lesswrong screeds on alignment) to create an aligned AGI.

This is a long running trend in lesswrong writing I've recently noticed while hate-binging and catching up on the sneering I've missed (I had paid less attention to lesswrong over the past year up until Trump started making techno-fascist moves), so I've selected some illustrative posts and quotes for your sneering.

Good news, China actually has no chance at competing at AI (this was posted before deepseek was released). Well. they are technically right that China doesn't have the resources to compete in scaling LLMs to AGI because it isn't possible in the first place

China has neither the resources nor any interest in competing with the US in developing artificial general intelligence (AGI) primarily via scaling Large Language Models (LLMs).

The Situational Awareness Essays make sure to get their Yellow Peril fearmongering on! Because clearly China is the threat to freedom and the authoritarian power (pay no attention to the techbro techno-fascist)

In the race to AGI, the free world’s very survival will be at stake. Can we maintain our preeminence over the authoritarian powers?

More crap from the same author
There are some posts pushing back on having an AGI race with China, but not because they are correcting the sinophobia or the delusions LLMs are a path to AGI, but because it will potentially lead to an unaligned or improperly aligned AGI
And of course, AI 2027 features a race with China that either the US can win with a AGI slowdown (and an evil AGI puppeting China) or both lose to the AGI menance. Featuring "legions of CCP spies"

Given the “dangers” of the new model, OpenBrain “responsibly” elects not to release it publicly yet (in fact, they want to focus on internal AI R&D). Knowledge of Agent-2’s full capabilities is limited to an elite silo containing the immediate team, OpenBrain leadership and security, a few dozen US government officials, and the legions of CCP spies who have infiltrated OpenBrain for years.

Someone asks the question directly Why Should I Assume CCP AGI is Worse Than USG AGI?. Judging by upvoted comments, lesswrong orthodoxy of all AGI leads to doom is the most common opinion, and a few comments even point out the hypocrisy of promoting fear of Chinese AGI while saying the US should race for AGI to achieve global dominance, but there are still plenty of Red Scare/Yellow Peril comments

Systemic opacity, state-driven censorship, and state control of the media means AGI development under direct or indirect CCP control would probably be less transparent than in the US, and the world may be less likely to learn about warning shots, wrongheaded decisions, reckless behaviour, etc. True, there was the Manhattan Project, but that was quite long ago; recent examples like the CCP's suppression of information related to the origins of COVID feel more salient and relevant.

21

Is Scott and others like him at fault for Trump... no it's the "elitist's" fault! (www.writingruxandrabio.com)

submitted 3 months ago by scruiser@awful.systems to c/sneerclub@awful.systems

29 comments fedilink

I am still subscribed to slatestarcodex on reddit, and this piece of garbage popped up on my feed. I didn't actually read the whole thing, but basically the author correctly realizes Trump is ruining everything in the process of getting at "DEI" and "wokism", but instead of accepting the blame that rightfully falls on Scott Alexander and the author, deflects and blames the "left" elitists. (I put left in quote marks because the author apparently thinks establishment democrats are actually leftist, I fucking wish).

An illustrative quote (of Scott's that the author agrees with)

We wanted to be able to hold a job without reciting DEI shibboleths or filling in multiple-choice exams about how white people cause earthquakes. Instead we got a thousand scientific studies cancelled because they used the string “trans-” in a sentence on transmembrane proteins.

I don't really follow their subsequent points, they fail to clarify what they mean... In sofar as "left elites" actually refers to centrist democrats, I actually think the establishment Democrats do have a major piece of blame in that their status quo neoliberalism has been rejected by the public but the Democrat establishment refuse to consider genuinely leftist ideas, but that isn't the point this author is actually going for... the author is actually upset about Democrats "virtue signaling" and "canceling" and DEI, so they don't actually have a valid point, if anything the opposite of one.

In case my angry disjointed summary leaves you any doubt the author is a piece of shit:

it feels like Scott has been reading a lot of Richard Hanania, whom I agree with on a lot of points

For reference the ssc discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/1jyjc9z/the_edgelords_were_right_a_response_to_scott/

tldr; author trying to blameshift on Trump fucking everything up while keeping up the exact anti-progressive rhetoric that helped propel Trump to victory.

EA is becoming a cult? It must be wokeism fault by scruiser in c/sneerclub@awful.systems

[-] scruiser@awful.systems 23 points 1 year ago

Which, to recap for everyone, involved underpaying and manipulating employees into working as full time general purpose servants. Which is pretty up there on the scale of cult-like activity out of everything EA has done. So it makes sense she would be trying to pull a switcheroo as to who is responsible for EA being culty...

Effective Altruists: look, we *tried* to invite nice people as well as the huge racists we knew were huge racists when we invited them. What? Exclude the racists? But they're so *interesting!* by scruiser in c/sneerclub@awful.systems

[-] scruiser@awful.systems 31 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

They are more defensive of the racists in the other blog post on this topic: https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/MHenxzydsNgRzSMHY/my-experience-at-the-controversial-manifest-2024

Maybe its because the HBDers managed to control the framing with the other thread? Or because the other thread systematically refuses to name names, but this thread actually did name them and the conversation shifted out of a framing that could be controlled with tone-policing and freeze peach appeals into actual concrete discussion of specific blatantly racists statements (its hard to argue someone isn't racist and transphobic when they have articles with titles like "Why Do I Hate Pronouns More Than Genocide?").

In Case You Had Any Doubts About Manifest Being Full Of Racists by scruiser in c/sneerclub@awful.systems

[-] scruiser@awful.systems 25 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

There's more shit gems in the comments, but I think my summary captures most of the major points. One more comment that stuck out:

Being a republican is equally as compatible with EA as being a Democrat. Lots of people on both sides have incompatible views. I honestly think you just haven't met enough Republicans!

Yes, this is actually true, and it is a bad thing and an indictment of EA.

Edit 1: There is another post clarifying that it wasn't mostly racists (https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/34pz6ni3muwPnenLS/why-so-many-racists-at-manifest ) but 1) this is sneerclub, not careful count of the exact percentage of racists and racist talks to avoid hurting feelings club 2) if you sit down at a table with 3 Neo-Nazis, there are 4 Neo-Nazis sitting down. 3) "Full" is a subjective description, so yes its valid. two major racists would be more than my quota 4) see sidebar on debate

67

In Case You Had Any Doubts About Manifest Being Full Of Racists (forum.effectivealtruism.org)

submitted 1 year ago by scruiser@awful.systems to c/sneerclub@awful.systems

26 comments fedilink

So despite the nitpicking they did of the Guardian Article, it seems blatantly clear now that Manifest 2024 was infested by racists. The post article doesn't even count Scott Alexander as "racist" (although they do at least note his HBD sympathies) and identify a count of full 8 racists. They mention a talk discussing the Holocaust as a Eugenics event (and added an edit apologizing for their simplistic framing). The post author is painfully careful and apologetic to distinguish what they personally experienced, what was "inaccurate" about the Guardian article, how they are using terminology, etc. Despite the author's caution, the comments are full of the classic SSC strategy of trying to reframe the issue (complaining the post uses the word controversial in the title, complaining about the usage of the term racist, complaining about the threat to their freeze peach and open discourse of ideas by banning racists, etc.).

2

Sneerquence Classic: "Shut up and do the impossible!" (ironic in hindsight given the doomerism) (www.lesswrong.com)

submitted 2 years ago by scruiser@awful.systems to c/sneerclub@awful.systems

0 comments fedilink

This is a classic sequence post: (mis)appropriated Japanese phrases and cultural concepts, references to the AI box experiment, and links to other sequence posts. It is also especially ironic given Eliezer's recent switch to doomerism with his new phrases of "shut it all down" and "AI alignment is too hard" and "we're all going to die".

Indeed, with developments in NN interpretability and a use case of making LLM not racist or otherwise horrible, it seems to me like their is finally actually tractable work to be done (that is at least vaguely related to AI alignment)... which is probably why Eliezer is declaring defeat and switching to the podcast circuit.