I mean if he had been willing to grift on it without actually creating anything he probably could have made some decent money in the current environment, but also I'm of the opinion that those folks willing to do that oughta be sent to install that orbital infrastructure by hand without a spacesuit, so probably for the best.

[-] YourNetworkIsHaunted@awful.systems 2 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago)

The flag "-dangerously-skip-permissions" sounds like something that would have come out of a joke a few years ago. I wonder what the incredibly predictable consequences of encouraging everyone to do something that has "dangerous" in the goddamn name are going to be.

The fact that it's referred to as a potluck is also interesting because it suggests that participants also had to come up with their own torture method to inflict. I imagine "spend twenty minutes with the sort of person who participates in a torture potluck" was the equivalent of potato salad.

[-] YourNetworkIsHaunted@awful.systems 10 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

All the dice discourse in particular has made this a fun throwback to the days of crypto bros earnestly arguing about which wall in your house you should hide your hand-stamped seed phrase record inside and whether you could trust a published book of truly random numbers over a series of 256 coin flips. Ironically I can only assume that by the time any of the concerns about entropy sources were validated most of them lost their crypto to some combination of get-richer-quicker ponzi schemes and twitter DMs claiming to definitely be FTX tech support.

This is fascinating. Ignoring, for a moment, the assertion that AI agents are sentient beings somehow, what struck me about both part 1 and 2 is the bafflingly sincere excitement about turning a fairly straightforward software project into "building a new civilization", and the assumption that this whole process will be best repeated for every software project. Let's even ignore the abysmal economics of needing to effectively invent the universe in order to add apple pie to your crappy flash game. It's absolutely wild and possibly malpractice for an engineer to be this excited about the needless expansion of scope and complexity of a project. It really showcases the kind of mindset it takes to be this breathlessly excited about the sheer number of different components that are being worked on in order to eventually somehow make a game happen. This is the dopamine rush of seeing the agents do something combined with an abdication of any responsibility for exactly what they do.

You know, basically all of the bullshit we see from the silicon valley set makes a lot more sense if they're legitimately unable to recognize a difference between society as a whole doing well and their particular project or vision succeeding. Like, it also fits with their assumption that the world is falling apart because people are being mean to them online.

Anyone who doubts that authenticity is dead should reference this paragraph.

I think there's some truth to that, but it also bears acknowledging that the market demand existed already. The number of people who can get a lot of benefit from IT productivity tools is much higher than the number of people who are willing to do the work of maintaining and customizing their own stuff. From an organizational perspective, it often ends up making more sense to directly contract with a known and trusted third party instead of developing the native capabilities, and at that point the tools and skills themselves start to specialize in ways to provide IT as a service at scale. Economies of scale lend themselves to efficiency but at the cost of resiliency and concentrating power, and tech companies chasing the line ever upwards have been abusing the absolute hell out of that, but while they have been altering the deal (pray they do not alter it any further) their bullshit is not the only reason why the deal exists in the first place.

I read through the white paper and I have further concerns even for any readers who are comfortable fucking over blind people (for the record: fuck you if you're reading this). It looks like this works off of the same kind of technique that allows fonts to render digraphs, positional forms, and emoji, leveraging the font rendering to allow it to jumble up the actual HTML that machines interact with. It's clever, but the fucking with screen readers, form autofill, and basically anything other than direct text rendering is really obvious.

I'm also not sure when it runs to generate the dictionary of mappings. The6biggest harm of the content scrapers isn't that it's ingesting the content it's that the repeated requests spam servers and basically DOS smaller sites out of existence. This is why iocaine is so brilliant and imo remains the gold standard. If the dictionary is generated when the files ar uploaded to the server or set to be displayed then this merely fails to address the real problem, but if the expectation is that this mapping gets created and distributed at request time then that just makes scraping even more expensive for hosts. Given that it works on dynamic text in their example it looks like at least part of the mapping runs on the client, so it's increasing the size of the package if nothing else. Bandwidth may be pretty cheap these days, but that's no reason to be wasteful.

Spread that around the recruiters and make sure they can tell candidates that a noted racist shit heel was appalled by how not racist they were.

I think corporate consolidation is a huge part of it, but I think a lot of software and tech falls into the same trap that a lot of infrastructure projects do: even if everyone uses it, nobody wants to think about it. That general apathy (until it fails catastrophically in a bridge collapse or a major service outage) limits the avenues for feedback on whether software is actually good or not in the same way that people don't have a lot of feedback on whether a water main is being routed in a reasonable way. It also creates room for grifters who specialize in obfuscating exactly what you're paying for.

46

Finally got around to actually subjecting myself to AI 2040. I started writing this up for the stubsack then realized I had accidentally put together a lot of words and our previous discussion on the subject had slipped into last week's sack. That said, let's start from the top.

Having put humanity on this path, the AI companies find it acceptable. But most people don’t. Forget thinking about his legacy—the President is starting to think about what’ll happen to him after he leaves office and the world gets transformed

That's not how American Politics works. I mean it's a bad quote because the dumb is smeared across a vast expanse of boring prose, but the idea that any election can be summed up on one single solitary issue is ridiculously naive. Local variance and immediate context matter a lot and pretending otherwise makes you a hack.

The President announces that the US will pursue international cooperation to avoid an imminent intelligence explosion.

That's not how international cooperation works. I hope I'm overly cynical here but I think that the lessons of international coordination on everything from land mines and chemical munitions to crimes against humanity and nuclear non-proliferation should be relevant here. The efficacy of the various climate change pledges and agreements are also relevant.

Both sides can still use datacenters for running AIs that already exist (i.e. inference), but they will retrofit each other’s datacenters with devices to verify that they aren’t being used for new training runs

That's not how IT infrastructure or independent verification work. First off, if you try and tell any competent IT security department to stick a network tap that sees all their inbound and outbound traffic and directly sends it to their competitors you're gonna get laughed out of the room, basilisk be damned. But let's also not forget that "how do I trust that your validators aren't going to demand to tour unrelated infrastructure to collect unrelated military intelligence" has historically been a massive sticking point in, say, nuclear nonproliferation talks.

The Consortium countries come up with a simple high-level framework: we’ll agree to let each other see all the AI research. Then, if we don’t like something someone is doing, we’ll talk about it and perhaps agree to ban it.

That's not how regulation works. This is a classic rationalist fallacy that we see repeated throughout the piece of assuming that ultimately if you express the argument properly everyone will agree on the right thing, and that the differences in what (e.g.) different countries don't like to see done are somehow going to resolve factually to everyone independently coming to the same conclusion. Otherwise you have what is effectively a race to the bottom where even within "the consortium" everyone just migrates their operations to whoever has the most lax regulations that lets them do what they want even at the cost of breaking the world.

AI workloads can be split into research and development (the process of building new AIs) and inference (the use of the existing AIs). In our proposal, research is almost entirely transparent, while inference is still private.

That's not how network monitoring works. How do you trust that I'm not running training data on inference channels unless you're monitoring everything. Remember, we're not just concerned with actually identifying wrongdoing, we're trying to establish beyond a doubt that wrongdoing isn't happening. Also let's note that this argument assumes that continuous learning is impossible, when "actively learning long-term lessons from your experiences" is a pretty large part of human-level intelligence, much less the kind of super intelligence they're concerned about.

The result will be a competitive market for AI, in which consumers of AI services have many options to choose from and excellent visibility into what they are buying.

That's not how economics works. The entire concept of patent law revolves around making sure that you don't lose the competitive advantage that comes from investing in improved products and processes because if you don't do that then there's no market incentive to improve things. If we're gonna throw out market incentives why aren't we throwing out capitalism altogether again? But even if we set that aside, given how capital-intensive the AI training game (supposedly) is, the big players are going to be able to take advantage of economies of scale and use the resulting efficiency to outcompete smaller shops, leading to concentration of power. We saw this happen with crypto mining pools, and should expect the same to happen basically anywhere that more returns are bought direct with more money.

To accomplish this, they agree to build the datacenters in the third-party countries least secure against their rival’s military intervention

That's not how international agreements work. While it's true that during the Cold War we saw third-party aligned countries hosting nuclear weapons, this was because they directly benefited from being under their ally's nuclear umbrella and the associated improvements in relations. Like, Europe hosted American nukes not because they had an agreement, they had an agreement because hosting American nukes meant Russia was less likely to Leeroy Jenkins their way through the Fulda gap. Imagine telling (West) Germany that they should host Soviet nuclear infrastructure specifically so that in the event of a breakdown in relations they can be targeted by their allies for violence. I know that there's a kind of neo-realism in international relations these days that likes to assume that non-superpowers don't actually have agency, but I promise you this isn't the case.

The attitude towards safety flips. The incidents of AI misbehavior, plus the fact that AI is so deeply deployed into the world economy, plus the transparency into AI research, plus the breathing room to process what’s happening, all combine to dramatically shift the burden of proof.

That's not how public opinion works! At this point we're firmly in science fiction, but I think it's significant that part of the plan is once again "then everyone realizes we were right all along and agrees to go along with our plan with minimal friction".

It escalates to the President. He calls Xi Jinping. They bargain and threaten. They yell at each other. Ultimately Xi agrees to ban this type of thing if the US does too. Details are left to the respective regulators to hash out.

That's not how negotiations work. I've wanted to talk about this before but couldn't find a clear point to throw it in, so here it is: are we gonna assume that literally every other issue or conflict in the world other than AI regulation is going to magically cease to exist? Was this part of everyone magically agreeing with everything Eliezer Yudkowsky - who totally isn't a cult leader - wrote is completely correct? Like, are we expecting the negotiations about chip manufacturing in Taiwan not to run into friction due to the ongoing dispute about Taiwanese sovereignty? And that's just the most obvious example, ignoring the energy crisis brought about by the disruption in Hormuz and a thousand other areas where disagreement is inevitable and can't simply be wallpapered over by two executive leaders yelling at each other about it.

Now that the United States is limited in the number of total robots it can build, it must choose how to allocate this capacity between companies. They decide to use the free market via a cap-and-trade system. Permits to build robots or compute are sold to the highest bidder and can be freely traded.

That's not how the financial system works. Okay the cap-and-trade solution here is cringe neoliberal realism, but I think the kind of numbers they're describing merit a reality check of their own. Like, if that share of the overall economy is entirely driven by AI then from the perspective of a normal family trying to buy food and pay rent I'm not sure how you wouldn't see massively disruptive inflation. Citizen's dividend or not. And while I'm loathe credit mainstream economists, I also can't see how a dramatic increase in that dividend like they talk about several paragraphs later doesn't similarly crater the value of money since nothing that AI is revolutionizing is really impacting the kinds of stuff that people would be buying save that there's more of it and that people are no longer being paid to produce it. Also from a political economy perspective the way this twists things is really dark. Like, if your industry accounts for three-quarters of government revenues then you basically are the government no matter what anyone says. And that's pretty goddamn bleak if you don't own an AI company. Even accepting the science fiction premise the only alternatives are complete capture of the state by AI companies or the nationalization of those companies by the state. Either option, combined with the existing social dislocation, could arguably spark a civil war or revolution. But then I guess we would have to acknowledge that neoliberalism isn't God's perfect economic regime, which isn't possible to do here.

It’s fine for AIs to get better at using valid arguments and evidence to convince people of things for the right reasons. That kind of persuasion is asymmetric: it works much better when the argument pushes towards the truth.

That's not how the postmodern condition works. (Yes I am going to keep pushing this bit past it's limits until this dead horse starts walking and becomes funny again.) Evidence, argument, and truth itself contain an inherently subjective element that means that we can't nearly separate "good" arguments for rationally advancing a series of syllogisms from "bad" arguments rooted in personal charisma or authority or whatever else the "argumentum ad X" crowd is going on about these days. Truth is not a viable value in its own right, and pretending otherwise just serves to reinforce the social and political systems that can decide how truth is understood at the present moment. In their sci fi Dreamland, that would be either the US and Chinese governments or the CEOs of AI companies, and lots of people are already really mad at them now even before all the sci fi nonsense starts kicking in.

Everything after this point is pure science fiction, and of a kind that isn't even interesting. Good science fiction uses the speculative technology or world to interrogate something about reality. What does it mean to have a perfect simulacrum of a human being that nonetheless isn't one? How much power should we afford to corporations in an attempt to make miracles happen? Would you still love the god-king if he was a worm? This instead tries to use it to argue why we should ignore reality entirely. The utopia they outline is not meaningfully connected to the policies and values they advocate for, and those policies themselves are fundamentally based on a fiction about how the world actually functions.

20

Apparently we get a shout-out? Sharing this brings me no joy, and I am sorry for inflicting it upon you.

14

I don't have much to add here, but I know when she started writing about the specifics of what Democrats are worried about being targeted for their "political views" my mind immediately jumped to members of my family who are gender non-conforming or trans. Of course, the more specific you get about any of those concerns the easier it is to see that crypto doesn't actually solve the problem and in fact makes it much worse.

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YourNetworkIsHaunted

joined 2 years ago