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submitted 1 year ago by boem@lemmy.world to c/technology@lemmy.world
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[-] DevCat@lemmy.world 226 points 1 year ago

There was a discussion a couple of years ago around gasoline taxes and how they are supposed to pay for roadway maintenance. The question came up about EVs. There were discussions about how to include EVs in the taxation system so they would pay for their fair share of the road. One of the options was to impose a tax attached to your vehicle registration based upon the weight of the vehicle. The greater the weight, the more wear and tear it produces on the road surface. This might be one solution to the barrier problem, namely moving the extra cost to the reason for the extra cost.

[-] frezik@midwest.social 129 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The "problem" with that tax is that if it's applied fairly, it gets very big very fast. The damage to the road goes up with weight, but not linearly. Not a square factor, either. Not even cube. It's to the fourth power.

Start applying that to long haul trucks and the whole industry will be bankrupt in a month. The implication being that we are all subsidizing that industry with taxes on roads. Including that one trucker with a "who is John Galt?" sticker on the back.

That said, this is also a very good argument for improving cargo trains to the point where most long haul trucking goes away.

[-] cogman@lemmy.world 75 points 1 year ago

And frankly, I'm really ok with this.

Trains should be the backbone for shipping. They are WAY more fuel efficient, like 3 to 4x more efficient than shipping by truck. Rail requires far less maintenance. And there's always the option install a 3rd rail and use electricity instead of fossil fuels to ship.

[-] grue@lemmy.world 51 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Speaking of road tax, you know that bad-faith argument about how cyclists need to pay our "fair share?" Well, I would be happy to pay 1¢ for my 10 kg bicycle if everybody with a car had to pay fairly by weight^4^.

[-] RidgeDweller@sh.itjust.works 17 points 1 year ago

Maybe it's because I don't really know anyone passionate on either side of this issue, but I've never heard of this argument. I know you said it's a bad faith argument, but I can't really imagine what a cyclist's fair share would be aside from maybe widening a road to add a bike lane lol

[-] Nurgle@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago

You see it a lot on in the comment sections of local newspapers or the city specific subs on Reddit.

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[-] Goronmon@lemmy.world 33 points 1 year ago

No reason the tax had to scale exactly to match the damage though. At least make it painful enough so people consider whether a larger vehicle is worth it.

[-] frezik@midwest.social 12 points 1 year ago

What I'm suggesting is to ramp up the tax on roads over several years in order to pay for the initial outlay on new train infrastructure. Then you don't need 90% of the trucking industry at all.

Which would be great for many other reasons.

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[-] magiccupcake@lemmy.world 29 points 1 year ago

So much of that freight should be moved by rail.

Tax based on weight to 4th power would work if we nationalized railways like roads.

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[-] billiam0202@lemmy.world 23 points 1 year ago

Yeah, I think turning highways back into methods of travel instead of "rolling warehouses saving Walmart a few bucks not storing anything on site" is a good thing.

[-] zeekaran@sopuli.xyz 13 points 1 year ago

Long haul trucking shouldn't exist.

[-] StrawberryPigtails@lemmy.sdf.org 15 points 1 year ago

As a truck driver, I would like to ask, how would you acquire all the “stuff” you have bought over the years? I am reasonably sure most of it was not produced locally to you. And the raw materials almost certainly aren’t locally sourced. Trucking and logistics generally has its issues, and you only have glimpsed a fraction of them, but it is absolutely necessary for modern society. Unless you’re proposing we kill off 2/3rds of humanity and go back to hunter-gatherer. Not a fan of that idea.

[-] Blankmann@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago

He's proposing trains should do the 'Long Haul' portion.

[-] StrawberryPigtails@lemmy.sdf.org 11 points 1 year ago

Which have their own issues. Namely, to my knowledge, upfront cost and lack of flexibility. I’m sure there are others.

Here in the US, you are unlikely to find enough people willing to think far enough ahead for that to happen. Too many emotions guiding actions.

[-] cogman@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The cost has already been paid. Even small farming communities have rail line access that's mostly been abandoned because the line owners switched business models.

As for flexibility, again, that's mostly an issue with how rail line management has evolved. From shorter more frequent trains to ultra long infrequent trains. Mostly to cut the cost of staffing.

The solution is simple, nationalize the rail service. Put it under the USPS and have them figure out scheduling to optimize the speed of goods shipping.

The current state of the rail system is entirely due to the monopolistic nature of ownership. The incentive is to increase prices as much as possible while shipping to the fewest stops possible. Profit motives are in direct conflict with generalized shipping.

The reason trunking works today is the public nature of roads. Well, why shouldn't rail lines be equally public? We practically gave the property away to the current rail owners with the notion it was for the public good... They've failed that.

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[-] n2burns@lemmy.ca 14 points 1 year ago

There was a discussion a couple of years ago around gasoline taxes and how they are supposed to pay for roadway maintenance.

I just want to point out, even if they're supposed to, gas taxes do not pay for roadway maintenance, not by a long shot

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[-] nokturne213@sopuli.xyz 114 points 1 year ago

Tldr most guard rails are designed to stop vehicles under 5000lbs. Passenger vehicles are starting to exceed that, and EVs can weight 30% more than ICE vehicles.

[-] Dnn@lemmy.world 21 points 1 year ago

How about keeping the guard rails as they are and let the fat car drivers carry the risk?

[-] Imgonnatrythis@sh.itjust.works 13 points 1 year ago

Even US drivers are not quite heavy enough to make a significant difference here. This has to do with car battery weights.

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[-] middlemanSI@lemmy.world 94 points 1 year ago

That's 3175 kg for non-free folk. My car has around 1600 kg. 7k pound car is a fat fat cow.

[-] JustEnoughDucks@feddit.nl 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

People are saying "it's all the electric cars and batteries..."

Yeah my VW ID4 which is a pretty decent sized electric car is 2003kg. You are looking at giant electric SUVs or electric trucks to get over that 3175kg. Even the cybertruck is only 3k and that is just a giant chunk of steel and battery. They must be including hauling weight in that...

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[-] 342345@feddit.de 82 points 1 year ago

Just get an even bigger car, it will keep you safe from those.

[-] NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip 28 points 1 year ago

I mean... kind of?

10 or 20 years ago? I would never have driven an SUV and thought anyone in one is stupid.

Five or six years ago? I needed a new car and ended up getting a "crossover" (so basically a hatchback on a lift kit). Still tiny compared to a lot of the cars on the road but a lot bigger than what I ever expected to drive.

Because in a sedan (like my rental a few months back)? My head is literally at bumper level for a LOT of the vehicles on the road. And now we have shit like the cybertruck where the bumper is a jagged metal wedge. I have a lot of faith in modern safety specs but that is still terrifying. In my small suv? I am still grill height for a lot of trucks but at least I am not weaving around monster trucks in a clown car.

Don't get me wrong. I very much enjoy the increased ground clearance and ability to haul an entire car worth of camping gear comfortably. But I also know that I am "never" going to go smaller. And... that is kind of the problem. People are dragged kicking and screaming because the alternative is to feel like you are going to die the next time someone decides they are going to ignore a red light.

[-] freebee@sh.itjust.works 20 points 1 year ago

That it's a arms race doesn't make it better for society as a whole. It sucks.

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[-] techt@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago

I didn't realize until now, but I've been very fortunate to be able to take the bus to work recently, and the lack of fear of other vehicles on the road is probably a huge contributor to how much better I feel after the commute. I have that anxiety ever-present in the back of my mind while driving a sedan.

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[-] TengoHipo@lemm.ee 46 points 1 year ago

We just need to not have these big ass trucks for the general public. You don’t need a ford 350 with rims jacked up to show you have money. You are a pavement princess.

[-] catloaf@lemm.ee 25 points 1 year ago

"But I need it for my work!"

You don't even have a toolbox on it. If it was an actual work truck, it would be a pickup with the bed replaced with one of those toolbox beds. Or you'd have a sprinter van like the actual plumbers and carpenters around here.

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[-] Neon@lemmy.world 41 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

7000 Pounds is 3.2 Tons (metric)

3.2 Tons

geez, i wonder why these guardrails wouldn't work on a fucking Truck

[-] GnuLinuxDude@lemmy.ml 39 points 1 year ago

My first car had a curb weight of 2400 lbs. It's absurd how fucking huge these planet-destroying, environment destroying, life destroying monstrosities have become.

[-] Quexotic@infosec.pub 36 points 1 year ago

Simple, if you buy a car that's too heavy for the existing infrastructure, you either pay for the improved infrastructure or take the risk yourself. The minivan that I drive the kids in is only 4,300 lb. If you're driving something heavier than that then, best of luck. I expect that if I'm driving a camper, and I fall off the road, I'm just done. Game over.

I don't expect infrastructure to adapt to the minority. That's not what it's for.

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[-] phoneymouse@lemmy.world 36 points 1 year ago

This becomes a self-reinforcing cycle. If there are 7000lb passenger trucks on the highway around my compact car, I maybe start wanting to get a larger vehicle myself to protect myself from the idiots who drive them.

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[-] warm@kbin.earth 29 points 1 year ago
[-] cogman@lemmy.world 30 points 1 year ago

The only solution is a bigger truck.

We need to get rid of the commie laws requiring special licensing (CDL, Communist driver's license) for freedom trucks.

[-] Encinos@dormi.zone 24 points 1 year ago

"The goliath-like GMC Hummer EV weighs a staggering 9,083 pounds, 2 tons more than a gas-guzzling H3."

I’m confused 'Murica, do you want freedom or not?

[-] x0x7@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago

If you want society to rely less on cars stop subsidizing roads.

[-] conditional_soup@lemm.ee 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Incredibly train-pilled. Clickety-clack, brother

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[-] doublejay1999@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

…and yet I don’t feel even a bit sad. What could this mean ?

[-] NineMileTower@lemmy.world 22 points 1 year ago

You're a psychopath?

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[-] Simon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 1 year ago

Okay this makes no sense. What about semi trucks or anything commercial? Did we decide decades ago that they can just fuck off and die?

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[-] rusticus@lemm.ee 11 points 1 year ago

Stupid post. 60,000 lb semi laughs.

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this post was submitted on 08 Mar 2024
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