Sofia Orr is likely to become the first woman since then to be jailed for refusing military service, but believes it is ‘wrong to take children and make them into soldiers’
And she's right.
Wow straight to jail with her!
Any government/country is actually just a kind of service (you pay taxes and get different goods from it). Every person should have the right to choose the provider of this service (change the country) or completely refrain from it. It means that mandatory military service is no less than slavery. People are not guilty for being born in a country they don't want to fight for (or that they don't want to fight at all)
I think you are on the right track with your ideals of the world, but I also guess you kinda know that this is not how states operate. Of course there are different types of states, but if you think of democracies, they are also not service providers to their citizens. On the contrary. Democratic states are the abstraction of all the private interests of their citizens. This is what they protect and advance. What arises out of that is that occasionally these interests will suggest a war is what the nation desires.
I do not believe in "nation's interest". That's the thing that made USA an aggressive state. It also means that the minorities' opinions are completely rejected. And yk politicians often like to do what people didn't ask them to do. Democracy is good but the right of choosing the country and freely leaving one must always be there
yes, I also don‘t believe in the nation‘s interest, yet it somehow pretty brutally exists. Something‘s got to grow, somethings got to give.
This is why promoting peace and good ideas is important. If the society is informed, it can change the situation
At first you got to have a good analysis of how society and the economy works. Unfortunately this already is a tricky thing, because not everybody agrees.
You largely can choose the provider of this service, but they will also choose you (or not).
And you can not refrain from the service while being in the community of those that don't refrain. In practice there are (nearly) no places where the community as a whole chooses to refrain.
If you're in a country with compulsory military service, make yourself interesting for other countries and leave.
unless you're a US citizen which requires the extra step of completely renouncing your US citizenship or continue paying US taxes (and therefore supporting the military mostly lol) regardless of where you may live in the world
It's complicated, but not necessarily. The US has a lot of agreements with other countries for you to avoid having to pay taxes for both countries. If you're living in a country with one of those agreements, you can file with the US to claim you've paid taxes to the foreign government.
And the US doesn't force you to renounce your citizenship, it's generally other countries that don't allow dual citizenship; Germany and Denmark for example don't allow it.
is there something you can point me to that confirms this? i'm not saying you're wrong but my quick google search said the opposite.
I was wrong about Denmark citizenship, but look here for an explanation of the tax treaties and the FEIE.
And the US doesn't force you to renounce your citizenship
It does if you don't want to continue paying US taxes no matter where you live and work.
other countries that don't allow dual citizenship; Germany and Denmark for example don't allow it.
I don't know about Germany, but that hasn't been true of Denmark for nearly a decade.
I get the feeling that your source is located somewhere between your spine and the backs of your thighs.
I was wrong about Denmark. I did some research last year and apparently what I found was wrong.
But the US has Tax treaties, the FEIE, and the Foreign Tax Credit programs for expats to avoid paying US tax when overseas. But you still need to file with the US.
See here:
The current situation is not the best in my opinion. I think people who don't agree with it (like me) should try to change it if possible (peaceful ways are always preferred) instead of adapting to the situation. Though everyone has the right not to fight and not to do anything at all. I'm not saying that fighting the regime you don't like is mandatory
Eh... Close, but they are also a concentration social power (and fundamentally deferred violence), and rights only really exist in the context of social power. You can try and establish your own personal sovereignty but you can be sure that any state that cares to will test that. Sometimes the most you can do is accept that it is able to imprison you or go down fighting, and if you are committed to pacifism the latter is a harder option.
Fighting is the last option. It's needed when a state becomes usurpated and (unpopular opinion) when the current situation creates an objective high risk for the society or its part and waiting for the election is not really an option (such risk can be exhibited as genocide, severe discrimination or just as creation of a good environment for spreading aggressive ideas. All are dangerous). I think the best thing to do in a democratic society is trying to promote ideas which you think are right so people who agree can join you and you all can have a bigger influence on elections and people who aren't sure about their views can also find yours appealing. Leave the enforcement part for people who really know what they're doing and who you're sure are doing it for the higher good
No don't like this. Countries aren't corporations. Last time we tried that it was called fascism.
KEEP IT UP!
The Israeli prison system is already overflowing because of the war. Make it flow over even worse.
As of last week, the number of prisoners in Israeli jails numbered some 19,372, an increase of over 3,000 since October and significantly more than the maximum prison population of 14,500 mandated by law.
(I'm quoting Times of Israel but I don't want to link them in any form, you can find that if you want to.)
Here's another figured from them
Amid the war in the Gaza Strip, the IDF has called up a total of 287,000 reservists
The total prison capacity is 14.500, and it's already overflowing.
Even if every 50th IDF reservist or conscript refuses to go, it's still 6000 people more for them to deal with. If every tenth conscript/reservist refused, it'd be twice the total prison capacity on top of the already problematically overflowing prisons.
Swamp the system.
So even a tiny majority refusing to go and instead choosing prison over participating in genocide can have a huge impact, indirectly.
I think refusers go to military prison, not regular prison.
Well at least here in Finland, where we also have conscription, you go to a normal prison and serve six months (or at least it used to be 6months, the same as the shortest conscription time). And I'd like to note that there are several options for conscription. Full military service, unarmed military service (you serve in the military but don't have to touch weapons, you'll be a backline logistics guy or some such) and civil service, which is a bit longer, but you never serve in the military (essentially you work in an old people's home or something for 13 months).
For one, we don't have a "military prison", as that's an actual prison operated by the military. Israel does have them though. Or one with several detention centers.
Secondly, because when conscripts refuse conscription, they're still civilians, as they've not been conscripted.
This one was about a reservist, so it's probably different.
However, going by the stats on...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_military_prison
... I think the numbers might've been in the figures I mentioned (compare the occupancy numbers) and because a lot of the prisoners were prisoners of war, who go to these military prisons.
My point is that while a majority opposition to the war seems unlikely, getting 1/10th, 1/20th, or even 1/50th (=2%) of people refusing like the brave woman in the article, there'd be massive issues for the Israeli prison system.
They already started trying to lift regulations of the conditions in the prisons, so they could shove them even fuller.
Well I'll forgo my dislike of linking this bullshit "news source", so we can all be on the same page, more or less.. No pun intended.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/jails-running-out-of-room-due-to-war-prison-service-warns/
Eighty-four percent of those classified as security prisoners are currently living in an area of under three square meters in size, less than the legal limit, and 3,000 prisoners are now sleeping on mattresses on the floor rather than in beds.
This situation is potentially dangerous and “my biggest fear is that we will lose control over the prisoners in the prisons,” committee chairman MK Zvika Fogel (Otzma Yehudit) warned
They fear the exact problem I'm proposing would be easy-ish to exacerbate.
Last month [Nov -23], in the wake of Hamas’s devastating assault on southern Israel, lawmakers passed a bill allowing the government to declare an “incarceration emergency,” paving the way for the temporary lifting of restrictions on housing conditions for prisoners.
And another article from December:
##Knesset extends Israel’s ‘incarceration emergency’ as prisons near capacity
According to the Israel Prison Service, 19,756 people are currently held in Israeli jails and 'within a week or two, we will reach the maximum capacity for prisoners'
They mention the max capacity as 20,000.
And these must be military prisons as well, since I don't think POW's or "security prisoners" would be held in normal prisons.
He added that some 88% of Palestinian prisoners held for terror offenses — commonly known as security prisoners, are living in spaces of “less than three square meters per prisoner.”
Some genocidal right-wing zionist maniac then went on to say how these conditions are "a summer camp" and how "Hamas killers must be kept in the lowest conditions the law allows".
And this is following a security prisoner getting a beat to death.
Anyway thanks for coming to my TED-rant.
Well at least here in Finland, where we also have conscription, you go to a normal prison and serve six months (or at least it used to be 6months, the same as the shortest conscription time).
That hasn't been the case for ages in Finland. These days you get 6 months of "house arrest" if you refuse conscription. Electronic tagging that is. You are allowed to leave your house to go to the grocery store, to work or to study etc at predetermined and agreed upon times.
Oh man. Totaalikieltäytyminen is so easy nowadays, god damn.
I served II/09 so it's been a while.
Thanks for the info. Guess the mad bastards managed it then, because I did hang around totari people as well, and that's where I actually learned this idea. Because he had counted prison capacity in Finland and it was something like 1-3% of every batch who would need to say "nope" and they just wouldn't fit into prison anymore.
I really would like to know the details of when this was on the board being discussed.
First good news I've heard today, ty man.
Which aren't equipped to handle a significant enough mass influx of people refusing to participate in a genocide either.
She has actual courage. Just simply doing what you're told without question makes you as weak as the rest.
Based. Maybe she can get political asylum from Fascism.
Refusing to be complicit in Genocide? Believe it or not, Jail.
When the world is run by criminals, being lawful is made a crime.
Paywall. There are deferments you can get so you don’t have to fight. What’s the full story here?
Concientious objectors are jailed in Israel. This isn't anything new, see here for another case https://www.amnesty.org.uk/urgent-actions/conscientious-objector-detained-israel
Conscientious objectors are not jailed.
Anyone can just do community service roles instead of the military. Sounds like only people who completely refuse to help out at all are punished.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherut_Leumi
Sherut Leumi (Hebrew: שירות לאומי, lit. 'National Service') is an alternative voluntary form of national service in Israel, as opposed to the mandatory military conscription prevalent in the country. It is designed for individuals who do not meet the eligibility criteria for service in the Israel Defense Forces, or who hold conscientious objections to military enlistment. The program primarily was created for religious Jewish girls aged 17 to 24, although it is open to all applicants who cite diverse grounds for their decision.
The majority work in schools, but can also work in places such as special education, administration, hospitals,[3] law, geriatrics, nursing homes, health clinics, teens at risk, internal security, disadvantaged communities, immigrant assistance, and many other organizations. Acceptance is based on an interview via a placement organizations that try to find the youth appropriate skills, interests, and needs.
Although the Israeli army’s Conscience Committee can decide to allow exemption from military service, this is usually granted only to those conscientious objectors who refuse to serve on religious grounds. However, according to the UN Human Rights Committee, no discrimination is permitted “among conscientious objectors on the basis of the nature of their particular beliefs” - i.e. whether they are religious or otherwise. Even though Israeli law does allow for exemption on grounds of pacifism, the army’s Conscience Committee frequently rejects pacifists' cases. The authorities deny objectors the possibility of performing alternative civilian service. Conscientious objectors in Israel can be convicted of and imprisoned for the same “offence” repeatedly. In 2003, the UN Working Group on Arbitrary Detention said that this practice flouts the rights of conscientious objectors under international human rights standards which prohibit “double jeopardy”.
Your point was already refuted in the article from amnesty I linked.
Hasn't it always been young people who make the bulk of the armies?
Israelis have had conscription for years.
Suddenly she sees what the fuck is going on when some skin is required to play the game.
IDF Females don't get put in combat roles.
She could have nodded her head and be complicit in Genocide behind a desk.
But she'd rather be in Prison than do the Holocaust.
Sorry. Choose your governments carefully.
Well, she's certainly part of a minority. The majority of the political parties in Israel are extremely right-wing, not much choice there.
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