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[-] MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 131 points 8 months ago

I took economics in my college days and this is a very stark example of people who are bad at economics.

Everything costs money. You can relate everything to a dollar amount in business. From labor, to time spent, to equipment and it's use, the cost of fuel for transportation etc. Knowing the full cost of selling an item including the time spent making it, the supplies used, the failure rate where you need to replace it at no cost to the customer, everything should be able to be factored in. From there you can set the cost of something, taking the overall price for all involved aspects of creating the thing, and adding some profit margin.

Spending a dollar to make a dime is adequate. If your economic costs are a dollar and you sell the thing for $1.10 then you make money. Sell enough and that's business.

With all that being said, the cost of transit fares should be set with the expectation that there will be unavoidable times where people will ride for free. Whether that's because of gate jumping, or other fare avoidance, or that someone simply entered into the system in an unexpected way that bypassed the fare system, or if it's simply that a fare was given out as courtesy, it's all baked into the fares that everyone pays.

The only time chasing down the people intentionally skipping their fare, makes any sense is if that amount of loss because of fare skipping is significantly above the expected losses from fare skipping. Googling it, the NYC transit system has a gross revenue around 5.8 billion dollars. Which means the amount of revenue to be gained by chasing down ~$100k in losses is around 0.0017%

If, the process of chasing down the fares costs over 1000% more than the fares are worth to do it, then the simple answer is: don't do it. That's basic economics.

In addition, they garner so much negative publicity in that process that they damage their reputation needlessly, which may lead to additional spending to improve their public image.

Finally, if you don't have more than 0.002% of your earnings set aside for losses like this, then you shouldn't be running the business. In reality, that number should be much, much higher than 0.002%.

To conclude: the whole thing is stupid from the outset. Tracking the losses makes sense, so you know what the figures are. Once you know the figures, crunching the numbers to see if pursuing action against the perpetrators is trivial, and should show a very clear picture of whether to take action or not.

In this case, no action was appropriate. Instead, they spent $150 million to get their public image ruined chasing after a bit more than $100k, and they will likely spend $100M more to try to repair their public image.

The losers in this situation? The people.

[-] PoliticalAgitator@lemmy.world 75 points 8 months ago

They're not bad at economics, they're simply lying about what their goal was. That $150mil didn't just blip out of existence like in a video game, it ended up in people's pockets.

I would bet good money that many of those pockets belonged to friends and family members. Neoliberals have been using this tactic for decades as a way to turn public funds into private profits.

[-] einat2346@lemmy.today 27 points 8 months ago

Or it just went into overtime for enforcers to sit around a train station watching a monitor.

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[-] brbposting@sh.itjust.works 17 points 8 months ago

Something I read in discussions about San Francisco Bay Area transit which I did not see in your comment: perception of fare jumpers being responsible for an outsize proportion of antisocial behavior lead to commuters feeling unsafe.

For the record, I support UBI and like the sound of free transit.

[-] MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 9 points 8 months ago

That's more of a social issue than anything.

It may be the case that those who are unable to pay fares, are also those that are likely to have no income or homeless or something. The "dregs" of society if you will.

I don't want to dive into this too deeply, because homelessness and poverty are another issue than what I was driving at, but it is something that we're not doing well with and it's something that needs to be addressed. I also support UBI and free transit would be nice but I don't think that's going to happen unless things change significantly. Even UBI is a long shot as is. Giving away services for free to everyone like transit access is basically anti-capitalist and a difficult thing to persuade others (especially conservative leaning individuals - specifically the capitalists) to agree to.

Regardless, there may be some association between the so-called "dregs" of society and criminal and antisocial behaviour. I understand drug addiction and how it starts well enough to know that people who are in -for all intents and purposes- "hopeless" situations, are at high risk of drug seeking behavior and looking to drugs to relieve their mental suffering. Of course this can lead to a whole slew of other issues, but it can be caused by social factors including unemployment, job loss, and homelessness. It can go the other way, that drugs lead to homelessness, job loss and unemployment (among other things), but that's neither here nor there. The fact is, antisocial, criminal and addict behaviors are often correlated to the poor, destitute, homeless, etc. Whether that correlation is accurate or not is up for debate, since it is difficult to keep any records for those that are displaced, nevermind records that are good enough to really say such correlations are fact. Nevertheless, the general viewpoint of the average person is that the homeless/drug addicted/criminals are going to more often be the ones doing bad things, such as dodging fares. Again, that may or may not be true, but it is the perception that matters in this case.

In the absence of any evidence, it is hard to say that the antisocial types are the majority of fare dodgers. The intent that I derived from the limited information provided by the op, was that they were seeking to end fare dodging. There was no other significant stated purpose for the investigation. In that context, pushing forward with the investigation, given the economics of the situation, the decision was ill conceived, and should have died in the meeting where it was proposed. If the intent was to "clean up" the transit from undesirables doing antisocial things like the example you posted, then that should have been clear in the statements of intent by the NYPD and NY transit authority folks.

I don't have the context for it to say that was one of their stated intents, as I'm not a person living in New York State, nevermind NYC, and I have no reason to, nor desire to follow the happenings in New York. So if the understanding I have is wrong, I would invite someone to please correct me.

The perspective I was seeking to explain in my previous post was that of an economist (in a very general sense - I have economic background and understanding, though my understanding would be massively overshadowed by anyone with a major in economics), and explain not only that their reasoning was flawed, but that the idea was faulty from the outset.

Unless there was an alterior motive that I'm not aware of, the people running the show over there, and anyone responsible for making this happen, should be fired, since they basically just took $150M and set it on fire for no reason whatsoever.

[-] MidRomney@lemmy.world 11 points 8 months ago

You also neglected to factor in the economic benefit of people taking a trip they don't pay for vs not taking that trip at all because they can't pay. Those people might be taking the train to work, which increases economic activity and value of the entire system, or to school, which is an investment into the future of the system, or to do shopping or eating at restaurants, both of which add value to the system. But I'm also one of those people that think public transit should be free since giving people the ability to freely move around an area can only have net positive outcomes.

[-] player2@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 8 months ago

Subway fare dodgers steal $285 million per year, so spending $150 million to try to stop or prevent that in the future isn't that unreasonable. It turns out to have not paid off because they only caught people who owe an equivalent to $100k.

I imagine that they assumed the increased surveillance would prevent some unknown amount of future fare dodging which can't be quantified because the overall trend seems to be increasing.

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[-] dipshit@lemmy.world 54 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Good news! We’ve found the missing $104,000! It only took us $150,000,000 to do so! The remaining -$149,869,000 is left for you and your future children to pay! Remember, vote Republican so we can continue to fleece you for all that you’re worth!

GOP backs the blue, they support NYPD and wholly endorse thier actions.

[-] TheKingBee@lemmy.world 41 points 8 months ago

vote Republican so we can continue to fleece you for all that you’re worth

Oh buddy, I've got bad news for you, NYC is democrats all the way down.

Democrats run on being better than republicans, that doesn't mean they are good...

[-] horsey@lemm.ee 11 points 8 months ago

I doubt that the cops are generally democrats.

[-] dipshit@lemmy.world 6 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Democrats aren’t republicans.

I don’t like salad but I dislike turd salad even more.

(Don’t actually vote republican unless you enjoy paying more for big government). Democrats actually care about balancing the budget. Republicans are the party of fiscal irresponsibility.

The problem is, not many people grow out of their right-wing childhoods. As the saying goes, once you start earning a paycheck, you start voting democrat!

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[-] BumbleBeeButt@lemmy.zip 48 points 8 months ago

Some politician should be in prison for this

[-] OldWoodFrame@lemm.ee 15 points 8 months ago

Despite the recent uptick in fascist sympathy wanting you to think otherwise, politicians making political decisions you disagree with is not actually a jailable offense.

Some politician should lose re-election for this.

[-] Zron@lemmy.world 8 points 8 months ago

Grossly mismanaging public funds should at least involve some kind of disciplinary action.

I think jail is a little extreme unless the funds went directly into the politician’s pocket. But some kind of heavy fine, or removal from office for egregious or repeat offenses seems entirely reasonable. Do we really want to encourage politicians to waste millions in tax payer money hunting down a fraction of that in fines.

They must have known who had outstanding fines and how much it would total to be. Did no one bother to open excel for this whole fiasco?

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[-] FMT99@lemmy.world 9 points 8 months ago

Or rather the voters who punish any politician that's not perceived as "tough on crime"

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[-] Gullible@sh.itjust.works 39 points 8 months ago

442 years of overtime. Very bigly. However, this story came from the New York post and I trust no part of it for that reason alone.

[-] Catoblepas 10 points 8 months ago

The New York Post being the first result when you search doesn’t mean it’s their story. Gothamist covered it first and is even directly cited by the NYP article.

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[-] ceiphas@lemmy.world 32 points 8 months ago

TIL that a yearly Ticket for NY costs over 1500$ whereas a yearly Ticket for the whole of Germany costs 588€... Seems legit...

[-] wizzor@sopuli.xyz 8 points 8 months ago

I don't know about NYC or Germany, but a yearly ticket that covers the Helsinki metropolitan is 993.70€.

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[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 28 points 8 months ago

The L.A. train system (at least when I lived there) had no turnstiles. It was mostly on the honor system. They did have transit cops that would randomly check to see if you had a ticket, but there weren't hundreds of them or anything. You'd see one on occasion.

Somehow the trains are still running.

[-] limelight79@lemm.ee 29 points 8 months ago

That's how it works in Europe, at least in cities I've visited (mostly Germany).

If we'd see public transit as a public good, rather than something that's supposed to be a profit center, maybe we could be a little smarter about it...

[-] Sadbutdru@sopuli.xyz 17 points 8 months ago

Yes! In Luxembourg it's just free. All busses, trains, funicular, trams, in the whole country, for everyone. Great way to encourage less car use, more active lifestyles, and improve quality of life while also helping the economy.

[-] gedaliyah@lemmy.world 24 points 8 months ago

But if this simply deters fare jumpers for the next fourteen hundred years, then it will have nearly paid for itself!

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[-] HerbalGamer@sh.itjust.works 20 points 8 months ago

babyslime reblogged snussyeating

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[-] Lojcs@lemm.ee 17 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Is that a sum of the salaries of police officers stationed in subways? I don't see how else they could spend that much

Edit: I now see that it says extra, so how?

[-] prettybunnys@sh.itjust.works 15 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

I could easily see them spending 150 million to create a “task force”

just speculation

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[-] KevonLooney@lemm.ee 12 points 8 months ago

It's probably the overtime they paid officers to stand there and play Candy Crush. They will literally stand near the door, without helping, while someone is struggling with a stroller or shopping bags.

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[-] Buelldozer@lemmy.today 16 points 8 months ago

Huh, I was just watching a Cash Jordan YT Video last night about the NYC Subway system and in it he said that the MTA estimates its losing 690 Million dollars per year because of people dodging fares.

That's a staggeringly high number but based on volume of people fare dodging in the background of the video I can almost believe it.

[-] SmoothLiquidation@lemmy.world 16 points 8 months ago

The way the original post was written it could be they spent $150 million and the people they caught owed $100k. So they didn’t catch everyone and both statistics can be right.

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[-] IanAtCambio@lemm.ee 16 points 8 months ago

I saw that the NY transit system made 5.8 billion last year. The 150 million has nothing to do with fare jumpers and everything to do with forcing most people to pay. If it was well known that there is no punishment for not paying, why would anyone pay?

[-] chatokun@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 8 months ago

There's lots of little stuff I could "get away with" but font because I feel like it would harm others. I donate, I return carts, I try to clean up, I'm happy to pay taxes that help people who need it, and just hate how it gets misappropriated for war and the rich. I give tips, I try to be polite and helpful in games, with people online, with people in person, etc.

Not everyone wants to get away with something. Lots of us understand we're part of a community and if we all slack off completely it'll fail. So I do what I can, I purchase works I already read but enjoy and want author to make money off of, etc, as long as I can afford it.

Do I still pirate stuff? Of fucking course I do. However, if it's within my means and I enjoy the product, I feel like I should give back. He'll, it's hard for me to use restrooms in restaurants without at least buying something from the dollar menu or something.

[-] Jenoki@lemmy.ml 13 points 8 months ago

Can someone please post the source of this statement?

[-] Rediphile@lemmy.ca 21 points 8 months ago

They can't. The headline is misleading if not completely invented. The city lost $690 million to fair evasion in 2022 and likely a similiar number in 2023. Source https://www.transittalent.com/articles/index.cfm?story=New_York_MTA_Fare_Evasion_5-17-2023

[-] derf82@lemmy.world 9 points 8 months ago

The key word is caught.

They are comparing the ENTIRE COST of fare enforcement to the individuals actually caught and fined for fare evasion (and even then only for individual trips when they likely were evading fares for some time). It ignores the massive amount lost to fare evasion, and all the people that paid because they wished not to be caught.

[-] Kedly@lemm.ee 12 points 8 months ago

WAIT, I MISREAD THAT. I INITIALLY READ IT AS THEY WASTED 50K PUNISHING 100K, NOT 149,900K

[-] Knoxvomica@lemmy.ca 9 points 8 months ago

$150,000,000

[-] Gork@lemm.ee 12 points 8 months ago

RuLe oF LaW must be enforced, peasants be damned

[-] ira@lemmy.ml 11 points 8 months ago

And don't think you didn't contribute to that $150 mil just because you don't live in New York. NYPD received $500 mil from the federal ARP Act.

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this post was submitted on 14 Feb 2024
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