Latin American countries refuse to see Zelenskyy at summit with EU (www.pravda.com.ua)

submitted 1 year ago by Schooner@lemmy.ml to c/world@lemmy.world

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[-] Mindlight@lemmy.world 22 points 1 year ago

"The countries of Central and Latin America "threw cold water" on the EU's efforts to unite the continent to support Ukraine and call for colonial reparations in a counter-proposal to the draft declaration of the upcoming EU summit."

So on one hand they are not interested in standing up against the Russian attempt to colonize Ukraine but on the other hand they are very interested about colonial reparations?

So... are they pro colonization or anti colonization?

[-] Caligvla@lemmy.dbzer0.com 22 points 1 year ago

Just like Europe isn't interested in LATAM's problems, LATAM isn't interested in Europe's problems. Take that as you will.

[-] deus_deceptor@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Just like the sounds of my neighbor beating the shit of his wife isn’t any of my concern. I have absolutely no moral obligation to help people in need.

[-] Caligvla@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 year ago

I could say the same of Europe for the last, I dunno, century maybe. All those brutal US backed dictatorships and where were they?

[-] deus_deceptor@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

Please tell me how Ukraine should suffer because of Pinochet?

[-] Mindlight@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

Well.. that's convenient.

So then the colonization of Latin America was a Latin American problem and not an European one.

[-] Caligvla@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I'm pretty sure LATAM doesn't expect any reparations lol. This is more of a "fuck off, why should we help you if you don't help us" kind of deal.

[-] 5BC2E7@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

I think it’s about showing that they want to be treated as an equal partner. Since eu made it all about their priorities they countered by replacing european concerns with latin american concerns in their proposal.

[-] Methylman@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

TIL Ukrainian lives are only a European concern

[-] 5BC2E7@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

you seem to be presenting a false dichotomy. or you conflate high priorities with concerns.

if it's not intentional, hopefully today you'll learn that latin america prioritizing latin american issues does not mean that other issues are of no concern. for latin america there are more pressing issues.

edit: your reply doubles down on insisting that because it's not the highest priority then the only conclusion is it cannot be a concern. you are the only one claiming that latin america position is that the issue does not need attention. It looks like you can't accept that latin america has it's own priorities and dosen't have to prioritize whatever eu says should be at the top. this is more like we agree to make a joint statement and the first draft you send me is all about you you and you with no mention of me. so i send you another draft deleting everything about you and putting me first second and third place. it's a message.

[-] Raphael@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

South America has suffered with American coups for many decades now, none of us want to take part on America's Proxy Wars.

[+] NuPNuA@lemm.ee 21 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

[deleted]

[-] Raphael@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Why is the agressor attacking Ukraine though, has any liberal journal told you the reason? Has any of them told you about the american military bases quickly encroaching into Russian territory?

Has any of them told you the kind of policies Zelensky implemented? No, they haven't.

[-] Confused_Idol@lemmy.fmhy.ml 17 points 1 year ago

Last I checked, having a military base is not grounds for invasion and sovereign countries have a right to determine their alliances.

And even if it was grounds for an invasion, which it emphatically is not, Ukraine didn’t have any and the major European states were against Ukraine joining NATO until after the invasion.

[-] zephyreks@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago

It was for Cuba...

[-] Confused_Idol@lemmy.fmhy.ml 9 points 1 year ago

So you approve of the United States actions towards Cuba then? Since you approve of Russias actions towards Ukraine?

Right, didn’t think so.

Why it’s almost like you aren’t basing your stance on any kind of ethical value or set of principles at all….

[-] zephyreks@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Last I checked, having a military base is not grounds for invasion and sovereign countries have a right to determine their alliances.

What I think doesn't affect the fact that US policy considers having a military base to be grounds for invasion. In fact, I have no influence on US or Russian foreign policy and what I think about it doesn't matter. The fact is that the policy is pretty consistent (FWIW, out of the big powers only China hasn't actively invaded everyone who drops a military base near them). Stick to the facts.

[-] Confused_Idol@lemmy.fmhy.ml 4 points 1 year ago

The facts include the fact that Ukraine doesn’t have any American military bases.

So you are still wrong.

[-] zephyreks@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/10511

The Minister of Defense claims that they are (were) drawing up plans for the construction of NATO bases in the country as early as 2020.

Now, sure, Eastern European countries are well-known for being hopelessly corrupt and talking out of their asses so anything their government says is worthless, but Ukraine has consistently postured that they would like to join NATO and NATO has consistently postured that they would like for Ukraine to join NATO.

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/why-nato-has-become-flash-point-russia-ukraine

Plus, the Monroe Doctrine (which motivated US action in Cuba, Costa Rica, Guatemala, the Dominican Republic, Chile, Bolivia, Argentina, Nicaragua, Grenada, and Panama) literally describes exactly Russia's motivations... So it doesn't matter if you or I don't like it, because geopolitics has no morals and Russia and the US operate on a whole other plane of what's "right" and what's "wrong" than the rest of us.

These countries think that they should be in control of the entire world and that the entire world would be a better place if they were in control. They trample over other countries' right to self-determination and force changes that the population itself doesn't want in the name of ideals that never realize.

So are you really surprised that Latin American countries don't want to align themselves with the West?

[-] Confused_Idol@lemmy.fmhy.ml 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

2020

So after Russia invaded? Did you forget Crimea?

Not to mention Sweden of all places can’t even get into NATO. You think an Ukraine that was partially occupied was getting in? You think the Russian government doesn’t know that?

Are you ignoring NATO membership for Ukraine was already torpedoed by France and Germany who are only changing their mind now because Russia decided to try and take the whole country? So no NATO has not “consistently postured” any such thing. It was explicitly decided at The 2008 summit to not offer them (or Georgia) membership. The US cannot unilaterally add anyone to NATO. Nor does the general-security of NATO get to decide that. No action plan or invitation was offered. The words have about as much weight as countries claiming they will stop global warming. Without concrete action, meaningless.

I’m not sure when you are citing the Monroe doctrine like that established some kind of precedent when Russia has been invading and neighbors before the United States was even a country.

I don’t care who Latin American decides to back. That’s their sovereign right. You know, that thing that’s being violated by Russia. I never said anything about it.

What I adressed was a comment playing apologetics for Russia with inconsistent application of its standards.

So don’t try and hide behind the some “might makes right””geopolitics” BS now.

After all, if our standards and morals don’t apply to the conversation since these are globe coinquering monsters who will do whatever they can get away then why are you still making excuses for Russia and blaming it in NATO.

Because you have an agenda.

[-] zephyreks@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Might makes right is literally the foundation of geopolitics. Claiming otherwise shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how the world works.

It literally doesn't matter what you or I think because that's the reality we live in.

[-] Confused_Idol@lemmy.fmhy.ml 4 points 1 year ago

Irrelevant. That countries do things forcibly doesn’t mean I have to tolerate bad actions or should be quit about when they do bad or ignore bad arguments that try and justify the bad actions.

But I’m glad we now agree the invasion had nothing to do with a nato base.

[-] zephyreks@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Not according to Ukraine's Minister of Defense...

Nice revisionist history you got there.

Most people on these online platforms are American and implicitly endorse the actions taken by the US government by virtue of being American. It's hypocritical. I did assume that you were American, but if you're not then I apologize.

Nobody's trying to justify that what Russia is doing is morally right... But it is exactly what I'd expect a shit country with no sense of morals and a strong sense of "everything I do is righteous and in the name of my country and to protect my country from both real and imagined threats" like Russia or the US to do.

It's funny to watch Americans try and defend US actions in the context of Russian ones and then wonder why other countries don't want to get involved with either side, which, in case you forgot, was the whole point of the original post.

[-] Confused_Idol@lemmy.fmhy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

Revisionist history from talks about construction in 2020.

When Russia first invaded Ukraine in 2014.

Whose history again?

I’d love to see you quote me on when I ever said the US acted righteously. What I did say was that bad behavior by the IS is not grounds to justify bad behavior from Russia.

And again, the comment that started this chain was definitly trying to do that.

The rest is just white noise to try and expand the argument out of its scope.

Also known as arguing in bad faith.

[-] zephyreks@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago

Might want to look at the article you're posting on for an argument in bad faith...

[-] Confused_Idol@lemmy.fmhy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

Might wanna reread what I’ve said and what I’ve adressed since you know, I was responding to a comment on the article, not the article itself and this conversation has little to do with the article at all, mostly due to people like you making it about the US.

You know, the article about EU nations asking for support for a European nation from Latin American countries…..

[-] zephyreks@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago

The article about Latin American countries refusing that support? Hmm...

[-] Confused_Idol@lemmy.fmhy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

Which brings up the US how? Hmmmm…..

[-] zephyreks@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago

Because Latin American policy has been dictated by decades of US influence, just like how European policy has been dictated by decades of Soviet influence?

[-] Confused_Idol@lemmy.fmhy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

From an article that neither mentions the US or does the joint statement by the Latin Americans countries mention the US.

So yeah, maybe go back and read the article. Bringing the US up is conjecture unsubstantiated by the article. And weren’t you big on o Lu focusing on the article just a few comments ago?

I get you struggle not to tie everything back in the United States but American exceptionalism is a fairly toxic idea.

[-] zephyreks@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago

Which of the countries in Latin America haven't had governments flipped by US intervention? I'll wait for you to count.

[-] Confused_Idol@lemmy.fmhy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

Case and point. EU nations (aka Not the US) asking for support for an eu nation (which did not have anything to do with US coups in Latin America) is to you about the US.

You can’t even imagine Latin American countires having issues with Europeans treatment of them, like the article states. The response text but up colonial reparations.

The US is not the center of the world. Countries have motivations that don’t factor the US.

For someone who doesn’t like the US they have gotten deep in your head.

[-] zephyreks@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago

The US is the center of the West's response to Russia's invasion. That's indisputable.

[-] Confused_Idol@lemmy.fmhy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

Which doesn’t make make them the center of latin American reasoning. Geopolitics is more complicated than that. NOr is their anything in the article to imply anything of the sort.

[-] zephyreks@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago

Geopolitics is centered around the big superpowers (the US, the ex-USSR, and China). Claiming otherwise is silly.

[-] Confused_Idol@lemmy.fmhy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

Big powers like the entire EU? You know. Who the article was about.

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[-] zephyreks@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Last I checked, that's not what Ukraine's Minister of Defense claimed.

Considering how much Latin American countries have gotten abused by the US government, why are you even debating that they should be supporting the US side in this conflict?

[-] deus_deceptor@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago

South America in favor of war crimes, gotcha.

[-] zefiax@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Just like Europe has been in favour of war crimes in South America for centuries. First directly and then indirectly through supporting the US.

[-] deus_deceptor@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

Nice whataboutism you got there. There is such a thing as “the good fight”. Either you stand behind Ukraine in their fight for survival, or behind russia in their demonstration of what happens when a country is collectively falling apart due to fetal alcohol spectrum disorder.

[-] Methylman@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I mean clearly there is a third option - being a knob and claiming you're always right no matter what the facts say

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago

Did I miss something? Did America force Russia to invade Ukraine?

[-] Schooner@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago

It's interesting to see the perspective of non-Western/global south audiences compared to a Western/global north audience.

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this post was submitted on 07 Jul 2023

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